Hello, everybody. And welcome to today's episode of Vet Chat. I'm Catherine Bell, CEO of the Webinar Vet.
And today I am incredibly excited to be joined by Daniella D OS Santas and we are gonna be talking all about flexible working in the veterinary profession. Before we get started, let me introduce our guests today. Director of Professional Culture at IVC Evia Daniella is a veterinary surgeon who graduated from the Royal Veterinary College in 2012.
Over the years, she has worked in various clinical settings across southern England. In 2019 to 2020 she served as the president of the British Veterinary Association, guiding the profession through the unprecedented challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. In recognition of her leadership, Daniella was awarded the R CV S Inspiration Award in 2021 and became a fellow of the R CV S for her contributions to the profession that same year, passionate about animal welfare, she also serves as a trustee for the pet plan Charitable trust.
So welcome, Danielle. Thank you so much for joining me today. No worries and thank you for having me.
It's lovely to see you. Not on a Sunday afternoon weekly So it's good to have my free Sundays again. Yeah, absolutely.
So flexible work. And I feel like there's such an increased focus on it at the moment. Not just in the veterinary space, but, you know, in general, in the UK.
So to kick us off. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about how it's typically managed in the veterinary profession? Currently, it's a difficult question to answer, because I think it really, really does vary, across the sector, you know, whether it's small animal farm, animal equine practise, whether it's clinical, non clinical, charity, private practise and so on.
And it's managed slightly differently just because of the different ways we work right and the different pressures we have. And you know, for example, if you're working in farm or equine practise, there's still the issue with covering your own out of hours in most cases and so on and so forth. So I.
I think it's difficult to say that it's covered in a particular way. I think what is fair to say? It's got increased focus over the last few years and and rightly so, and I think what you'll find is that the decisions are being made at local level to try and balance the needs of the individuals in question and also the business, so that we can make sure that we have people with a good work life balance, but also that we're delivering the best care that we can to our patients.
Yeah, OK, absolutely. And I guess there are lots of challenges that practises face when they are trying to implement flexible work in, what types of challenges have you kind of come across? In the profession?
Yeah. So? So I think it's interesting because when you start talking about flexible working the first people, the first thing people often think about is is part time or someone doesn't work evenings or someone doesn't want to work weekends and actually, in reality, the truth is often completely different to that.
So I think some of the challenges that that the profession is facing is probably understanding what flexible working actually means and thinking outside the box beyond the typical that we've just said, but also then balancing, you know the needs of a client and and being able to see that when they need to see it and and the needs of the individual and the needs of the business. So I think there's a couple of challenges. I think there's challenges around the perception of what flexible working means.
There's challenges around what the solutions are available, to them. And I think there's also a fear, quite often from those who are leading practises, that they fear that they could get it wrong or that if they agree to it for one person, it means they have to agree to it for everyone. So there are a few myths out there that make it much harder as well.
Yeah, absolutely. Because you're right, I guess we always say at the webinar that you know, we work very flexibly, but I guess it's much easier for us in a sense, because we can kind of work anywhere where we've got, you know, a Wi Fi connection, because we a lot of us do work remotely. But I guess in practise, if you're in a leadership role, it's quite difficult to know where to start.
So, yes, it is difficult to know where to start, but I think it's just we have to take that first step. So flexible working isn't just about part time, right? It could be something like annualised hours.
It could be a job share. It could be a flexible rota that changes, you know, every week or every two weeks or so on it could be zero hours contract. There are so many different things that flexible working could be so for me.
For example, when I was junior vice president, I worked flexibly in the clinic I worked at and I. I worked in a clinic that was a 24 hour clinic so that there isn't pretty complicated to try and get flexible working when you've got to cover 24 7 care. And actually, for me, where it ended up was I said, right, I need a road to six weeks in advance and I can tell you the day six weeks in advance that I can't work, So that was what I needed.
But in return for the business, I said, But when I am available, you can choose the hours I work. And so the flexible working piece. Often we think it's just a one way thing.
What does the staff member need. But actually, it's a two way street. What does a staff member need?
What does the business need? And where is the meat in the middle or where is the compromise or where is the different type of Rota pattern that we can be thinking about? So just sticking with, you know, talking about leaders within veterinary practise.
If you've got some leaders who are hesitant to embrace flexible work in what would your advice be to them? I'd say to them, first of all, they they shouldn't be hesitant. You know, they have a duty to at least consider flexible working requests.
But I also wouldn't be scared about it, and I'd go in with a really open mind rather than going Oh, gosh, this is all gonna be about, mothers. It shouldn't just be about mothers. But, you know, that's what we're facing at the moment that it's all gonna be about mothers that just want to work school hours, don't want to work weekends don't wanna work evenings, et cetera, et cetera.
That's really the case. Yes, there are some that that's where where, where it lies But actually, when we look at some of the data and the research that we've done, childcare or caring duties was the third reason the third most common reason for wanting flexible working and work life balance and leisure activities were the other reason. So I would say to line managers, be really open minded Now I know of someone who was, you know, over a decade qualified.
The flexible working request they put in is they just wanted to finish an hour earlier on a Tuesday so they could get to their running club. And actually, their running club, only started so they wanted to finish at six instead of seven. And their running club started at half six.
You know, it was only five minutes down the road. Now the reason they did that is they understood that sometimes there'd be emergencies, et cetera, et cetera, and they were giving themselves some leeway to get there on time. The request was refused because the, practise leader said, If I do it for you, I have to do it for everyone else.
And so what that meant was that person left and so they left. They lost, you know, a really experienced bet for the sake of an hour. So if you are a leader, don't Don't get anxious about it to start with, have a little listen.
Go away and think about it Quite often, people come with requests, expecting some form of compromise. So, expecting to be like I'm not gonna get everything I need. So where where's the give and take?
And that's absolutely what we should be thinking about when it comes to flexible working. Brilliant. Yeah, that's just crazy, isn't it?
To think about, you know, for the sake of an hour. They've got the whole, you know, recruitment problem again to deal with. And I guess there is Have you, observed, like, a link between retention and flexible working?
Yeah, absolutely. When we're talking about flexible working in its broadest sense, right? So not when we're talking about just part time working when we're talking about flexible working in its border sense.
Absolutely. Because what happens is people will come to work more enthused, happier. They're working the hours.
They want to work to manage whatever else it is that they're trying to manage in their life cos they want to go. I don't know running because they've got family to take care of. Actually, they've got annualised hours cos they want to go on holiday for four weeks a year and people feel more valued as when a flexible working request is, agreed to or even if it's agreed to.
In part. As I say, it's a two way thing. They feel more valued.
They feel more inspired at work. They feel more loyal to the workplace. Therefore, you do get retention benefits.
But it's not just retention benefits. The quality of care being delivered is likely to be higher as well, because people are not as tired. People are, are more fresh faced.
People are happier to be at work, and there is a really beautiful cycle where if we can find the compromise and the way to work together to get flexible working, that there is a real benefit not just individual but for the business for our patients, I was going to say, actually, if you you know, how does it impact duty of care? You know, if because I would imagine that's probably a concern at some point for somebody who you know, is in practise and is, you know, considering all the various options. Sure, it shouldn't is the answer, because, actually, when it comes to flexible working requests, you know, you don't have to say yes to everything.
They have to benefit the business and, or meet the needs of the business, Should I say And in the veterinary world, one of the needs of the business is to provide 24 7 care and to provide continuity of care. Now, continuity of care does not need to be the same individual. Just to to be clear, you can have jobs, shares.
And if you've got really, really good handover, protocols and so on, there is a continuity of care. Or if you have someone who, you know, works part time does a job share or something like that. Continuity of care is easily achievable with good client communication as well.
So, for example, when I was in practise when I was, working condensed hours, if I had an animal that I've been seeing regularly for a chronic condition and it came in for a blood test or an investigation, But I knew I did it on a Wednesday, and I knew I wouldn't be until the next Monday. You know, it's about me saying to the client, I won't be able to get back to you until next week with your results. If you don't hear anything, it's nothing to worry about.
But my colleague will be able to look at the results in my absence, and if it's urgent, we will call you. So it's about managing client expectations around what hours you're in and when to expect to hear back. But also making sure you've got that back up cos you never know what's gonna happen.
And just so someone is aware of what's going on in case it needs to, the patient needs to be seen whilst you're not there. So it sounds like it all does. You know, a large part of it all does come down to communication and managing expectations as well, and that's both within and outside the team.
You know, I, you know, at one point I was very part time because of the BB a stuff and things like that. But my clients still came back to see me. They knew what hours I worked, what days I worked and they were fine with it.
If it was an emergency, they would see someone else. So it is really about good communication, both with your clients and within the team. Because, actually, you know, if you are part time, you do all you know, flexible hours where you work intermittently and so on.
It is really important to make sure that your team and your colleagues know exactly what's going on with those longer term patients as well. Brilliant. Why do you think it is that there's so much more talk of flexible work and now, like, do you think it is post pandemic?
Do you think people's, you know, sort of expectations have changed? Or what are your thoughts on that? I think it's a bit of both.
If I'm honest. I think flexible working was already being talked about prior to Covid because we started to realise that the work life balance bit was, was a problem. You know, we had good data coming from the B VA around motivation, satisfaction and retention in the workplace and all these sorts of stuff, and it was all it was all kind of pointing towards that direction.
Now I think when we first started having this conversation, it was all about Oh, we think it's about working mothers and so on and so forth. Actually, the data doesn't support that. As I've said multiple times, the the third most common reason for flexible working is caring duties above that is leisure activities.
And so on. At one point, the highest rate of people going part time no professional were men over 50 rather than working age women. And if you think back to then what it was, it was when you know they were coming to retirement or they were selling their practises and so on.
And actually, they decided I went a bit more me time, which is perfectly acceptable, you know, and so I think over time it has gone from this concept to this perception that it's just about working women to actually going This is more than that. And actually, there are more ways to do it than just part time. So So I and I think covid slightly accelerated it, but interestingly, I think it accelerated it for a different reason.
Our clients then started having different working patterns as well. So as soon as our clients start having different working patterns, their, desire to come into the practise and the hours in which they want to come into the practise also changed. So whereas historically, people would be commuting backwards and forwards and they could only come in in the evenings and because that's when they got off the train and got the dog and brought the dog to the practise.
Now they're working from home, and actually, they'll call you in the morning and go. My dog's got a sore ear. And you say, Can you come in at 145?
Yeah, sure. I'll take my lunch. Then I'll come in at 145.
Whereas five years ago, when less people working from home, the answer would be No. Actually, I can only do it after six. So, with the changing patterns of our clients, I think it has made flexible working more accessible for our teams as well.
Yeah. And do you think, I think we touched panic very slightly earlier. But how do you think flexible?
We can, you know, helps to combat burnout and stress and, you know, work life balance. So So I think it does. But I think we need to be careful about not putting all our eggs in one basket.
Right? So if you are at work for the hours that suit you and your lifestyle, for whatever reason, medical reason, caring reason, leisure reasons, personal reasons, it doesn't really matter. But if you are able to work a pattern that makes you happier as an individual, it means you will be happier at work.
It means that you have that bit more headspace, that bit more capacity to deal with the uncertainty with the difficulties that come through the door and so on. You will have more downtime or more appropriate downtime, Should I say, which means you'll have more rest time and and so on. So flexible working will help to a degree with burnout, but But now it is such a complex issue, that we can't just pin it all on flexible working.
You've got flexible working pattern. Therefore, you're not gonna get burnt out. No, It also depends on the culture of your practise.
The workload within your practise and so on and so forth. So is flexible working really important? A part of it?
Absolutely. But practise culture and ways of working are just as important. Brilliant.
No, that sounds great. And do you think there's any, because I know some people, you know might say if you go part time or if you know, you work, you don't work the sort of traditional full time, you know, hours. You might be overlooked for things like promotions.
And you know, you not You don't progress in your career as quickly as you might have wanted to. Do you think that there's any sort of truth in that? Yes.
And, and we'll talk about the what I think is the reality. Yes. And the unfair?
Yes. So the reality? Yes, that I say so.
Interestingly, when I was at vet school, I went through a phase that I wanted to. I was considering mixed practise, right? And the And the reason I ultimately didn't go for mixed practise is because I thought I will spend less time on each area.
Therefore, it will take me longer to get as good. Now, that's just a function of time, right? So if I'm spending 50% of my time on small animal, 50% on farm, I will progress slightly slower clinically than I would someone doing 100%.
Far more. 100% small, right, So So when it comes to, particularly if you doing part time hours. If if If we use the part time aspect of flexible working, there may be some I don't know, slight delay in the way that you develop clinically.
But that's just because you're seeing less cases, right? And so someone sees 10 cases a week. You see five.
There's gonna be naturally going to be that sort of difference. Now, that sort of difference only really happens at the early stage of your career, right? By the time you get to where I was when I left practise whether I worked, whether I saw five cases or 10 cases, my development was going at the same speed.
So that issue around development, it is probably only early on in your career where you lack the experience and therefore, it's slightly it takes you slightly longer time. Now, that's just the reality of it. Now, the unfair bit is about the career progression bit, which is where you are, right?
So and this is not just about flexible working. So the BB a did a study a while ago around gender discrimination in the profession. For example, where you had, two CV S, Mark and Elizabeth?
Both absolutely completely identical. CV S. They asked hiring managers.
Would you You know, how competent would you say they are? Would you put them in positions of leadership? Do you think they're trustworthy role models for the team?
How much would you pay them separately? They asked them whether they felt that, whether the hiring manager felt women still faced or didn't face discrimination and profession across the board, Mark was seen more competent, and he would have been paid more. Would have been put forward for promotion, et cetera, et cetera.
But the difference was more pronounced than those that didn't believe that, discrimination still existed. Now, the reason I bring that up is I suspect if you were to do the same study for part time working, you'd probably get the same sort of results. But there's an assumption and therefore there is an unfairness that people who work part time may find it harder.
And the onus on that is for hiring managers and leaders to actually take into account people's capabilities, not the hours that they're working. And also because there is still this perception that part time working is about women again. You put that all on top of it.
So there is a risk, particularly for part time working, that that could be the case. And and I think the onus is on leaders and hiring managers to actually recruit and promote in as unbiased a way as possible to make sure that they get the best people for the job. It may be that if you say you're going for you, you're looking for clinical directors.
You could have two part time clinical directors. It could be a job share. There's no reason for it not to be a job share anymore.
Leadership positions don't need to be full time anymore. So, yes, I think that they will face challenges, but they shouldn't. I remember.
We did a podcast with just de, from the B VA around, you know, discrimination and It just blew my mind that, you know, But yeah, first discrimination study was was the one that I, that I did. And if you look at the data, it's pretty bad. And and that's why, in answer to your question, I don't have the data that flexible working will make the difference.
But actually, if you extrapolate, I think it will. And I think if you look at those who are in leadership positions now, it is still more common to see a full time person in a leadership position than it is someone who's part time and bear in mind. Part time could be 30 hours a week instead of 40 hours a week.
It's it's not a it's not a big factor. You know, if you're working 10 hours a week, I don't think you can be, you know, a clinical director or so on. But, there are there are challenges out there that shouldn't be out there.
Brilliant. Thank you. And I guess as well, you know, from a kind of team on the ground, so to speak perspective.
Do you think there's any sort of issues that can arise with flexible working and in terms of like, you know, communication and cohesion. Absolutely. And and that's why when we were talking at the beginning, you know, the most important thing about flexible working is communication, and there's a couple of reasons why tension and cohesion can come up.
So when it comes to continuity of care, if you're not communicating with your teams appropriately handing over cases, et cetera, et cetera, you you do run the risk of of ill feeling developing when people who are, you know, are there full time or are there, or even if they're just there, the days you don't work. If they feel that there hasn't been a good enough handover and they're being dumped complex cases, then naturally that's going to happen. But I think the other point where it's communication is really important is when line managers are making decisions around flexible working, being really clear in their communication as to why or why not.
A flexible working request has been accepted, or why there's been an adjustment or a suggested adjustment to to the request, because, you know, when obviously we did a flexible working push about two years ago, 18 months ago, and one of the things that people were worried about was everyone would want Friday afternoon off, and therefore they'd get to a point that, they'd have no one working Friday afternoon. Now the reality is, you do not have to say yes to a flexible working request if it's detrimental to the business, right? So if one person comes and says, I'd like to not work Fridays and actually the business can can do that fine, like that's the right thing to do.
But by the time the third or the fourth person asks, then that's not OK to do. And at that point, it's just where you have to be really clear as to why you're saying no this time. And also you don't have it.
You saying yes to a flexible working request doesn't set a precedent. And again, that's something that needs to be communicated really clearly to team members that every flexible working request is dealt with as an individual request as well. Brilliant.
And I guess just sort of, looking ahead. How do you sort of see flexible working, evolving, You know, in the coming years, that's a really interesting question. I think I, I hope we will see more hybrid working in our profession.
And I know that sounds slightly controversial, but but I'll explain why, and it's worth before I talk saying that this is not practically possible for every business or every practise at the moment. But I think as we become more digitally competent as a profession, I do think hybrid working will, will be, more appropriate. So if we think about let's take farm practise first, because I think that would be the easiest one to do if you're wanting to communicate with farmers with results, her health plan results, blood results, test results, whatever.
Do you really have to be sitting in the office to do that? If you have a cloud based system, could you work flexibly from home and report your results from home, for example? And and even though we're far away from it, when it comes to small animal work, yet they may welcome a point that that's possible in small animal world as well.
You know, if you work four days a week and, your writer says that the Wednesday afternoon is your admin day, and you've communicated to your clients that you always report results on a Wednesday afternoon. Unless there's an emergency, why couldn't you be working from home in a hybrid manner to report your results? Now, that's where I think we will end up.
I don't know how quickly we'll end up there because it does rely on, us being digitally competent and capable. And that will be a different, a different, speed for all different practises and businesses. I think it would be an option.
Not everyone would want to do it. So obviously, now I work from home quite a bit can get lonely sometimes. And I do really miss being surrounded by people.
So sometimes just going to work in a practise for the sake of working in a practise is the best thing I could possibly do. I hope we get to a point where flexible working is seen as the norm, but that it's seen as the norm with an understanding from both the employee and the employer that it's a two way street, that it's not just about the employee's wants, that it's about the business and animal needs as well. So I hope that I'm not having this conversation with you in five years time.
It's just so it's just so normal that it's not a thing anymore. Absolutely. And final question.
Sorry. I know we're running out of time, but is there any way that you'd like to sort of signpost people or anywhere? You know, where there's some good resources that people can access to do with flexible working?
So So BB a Have some really, really good resources around flexible working, to help you either as a line manager as an individual, understand? And it's part of their good workplace initiative. So that would be where I go.
I would go to. But I would also say that anyone that's listening, your employer should have some good resources as well. Whether you work for a corporate and independent, it doesn't really matter.
They will have resources as well. Resources that will help you understand what the flexible working policy is. The process by which you need to go through, through to, request flexible working, and things like Acas and so on will also have the legal standing.
So, you know, it is becoming such a norm in society that there's plenty of stuff out there. BB a have the veterinary specific stuff, but also talk to your employer, whoever they are, talk to your employer, see what their policies are and and see if they could benefit you. Brilliant.
Thanks, Danielle. Yeah, It's really interesting times, isn't it? And I think with the change in government as well, I think it's all gonna change even further again, isn't it, from next year.
So interesting times. Oh, well, thank you so much for doing this today. It's been great, to hear your thoughts.
And, we hope to see you again soon.
