Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinarett welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the number one UK veterinary podcast. And I'm thrilled today to have Sergio Silvetti. Who's come on the webinar today, Sergio is, is, has gained fame through a famous tortoise that we're going to be talking about in a little bit, but also Sergio works at Rutland House in Saint Helens, a practise that I worked in in the mid-nineties, and just wanted to have a call out for John Tandy, who's sadly passed away recently and of course founded Rutland House.
It was one of the first veterinary hospitals in the country. So let's have this podcast in in memory and in honour of John Tandy who did so much for the profession. So, Sergio, thank you so much for coming on.
And yeah, tell us a little bit about your background as a vet and and then we'll move on to, to some of the issues and topics. OK, I mean, hi everybody, it's a pleasure for me to, to be here and, thank you, for inviting me. A little bit of background for me, I graduated in 1999 from Milan.
I wander around, part of North Italy for, 10 years and then I decided to move here in the UK. And since I moved here, I mostly, if not only worked in first opinion and referral exotic practises, and I gained my, certificate in advanced, maternity practise in Zoomed in 2016. And since then, I always enjoyed and I still enjoying working with all the weird creatures, mm, big and small, that can pass through my console console room.
This is a bit, is a bit it, a bit boring, but this is it. Oh no, it's not boring at all. But you, and I think, you know, exotic medicine is a real challenge.
It it requires sometimes for people to think outside the box, but actually also inside the box because when it's all said and done, the the approach to a dog with pneumonia, you know, isn't that different to a, a rabbit with pneumonia or a reptile with respiratory issues, is it? It is exactly this is exactly that, is, is applying basic basic skills learned at the uni. Two different, different animals, different species.
Of course you have to get a little bit of anatomic differences, anatomic knowledge, but at the end, when I approach my patients, no matter what they are from a rabbit to a giant African snail, it's always the same. I start from the head, I end up to the tail at the tail when they have it. But my reasoning skills and my reasoning approach is exactly the same as if it was a dog or a cat.
So that is what I always stress to students that come over, to learn and the referring vets refer cases to, to us. And you can learn so much from a history as well. I often found with my dermatology consults that the advantage I had was I could spend a lot of time with the client as opposed to perhaps a first opinion that could.
And sometimes just those questions would actually tease out so much information that you felt by the end of the history. That you almost had a diagnosis before you even started the physical exam, didn't you? True, yeah, and above all, in in reptiles, where most of the of the conditions are husbandry related, I spent most of the, initial consultation chatting with the owners and trying to get as many information as possible.
Before even touching my patient, so it is true, . And, and spending a little bit more, more of time investigating, like a, CSI detective, most of the times helps, yeah. And I think you made a really good point about the husbandry.
If you get the husbandry right with rabbits, with guinea pigs, with reptiles, with birds, then the likelihood is that there's going to be a lot more health. So it's really preventative medicine, you know, in the same way that vaccinate a dog against distemper in in reptiles and and some other exotics, you know, getting that. Husbandry right will prevent a lot of problems.
So education is so important with keeping exotic pets because often the the client isn't really aware of the the the needs of that particular species, are they? You, you know, the, the major problem are the information that you find, around, because I still get the latest one yesterday still get people coming over after being asked on a Facebook forum. Definite and specialistic forums then the pet shop and then they arrived to us, and the, the amount of wrong information that you can still get online, it is incredible.
I still cannot believe that at the moment, the most common misunderstanding in husbandry is feeding rabbits with. Wrong food recommended by specialistic pet shops. It's still unbelievable how much misinformation and misunderstanding is around about the basic and easy management of these, these pets is incredible and that what frustrates me a lot because if you fix that, probably we won't work that much but the health of, of the pets will increase significantly.
Yeah, it's a really good point, Sergio, and we've been very fortunate to do quite a lot of work, a lot of work with John Chitti and Foods, and obviously, you know, some of the information that we've, we've heard from there is, is well worth listening to. So for those people listening, you know, as vets and nurses who want to learn a bit more, I would advise go on to the website and look at some of the information about nutrition for. You know, rabbits, guinea pigs, daegus, you know, all sorts of of the the small fairies as we, as we often call them.
Yeah. And I suppose in a sense Eddie is a really interesting story and I'm perhaps if you tell us a little bit about the story, but we've got this super famous tortoise that lives in Saint Helens or or or wherever, and he's become a bit of a media phenomenon, hasn't he? It has, yes, I mean, a little bit of history of, of Eddie.
Eddie was brought to me, after being what I strongly suspect being, beaten and chewed, literally chewed, to the bones by rats. And so the first approach on the front legs, sorry, the front, the first approach was to try to save those legs, so we tried with local treatments and systemic antibiotics, of course, analgesia and so on and so on. But unfortunately, after a few weeks, the damage was too extensive and there was a necrosis of the forearms from the elbow joint to, to the, to the toes.
So, the peculiarity of the, of this case is that both of the front legs, have been severe, severely damaged and we had to take the decision that it was either to. Humanely euthanize or amputate those those necrotic limbs and apply some sort of support of the on the shelf on the shell that I decided to use a monster truck, wheels to allow him to continue to live outside in the garden without any major problems. And so we did, the surgery went absolutely fine.
Eddie recovered incredibly quickly and literally he started wheeling away, an hour after, after the recovery, and he started eating as well straight away after, after, after the anaesthetic. So, everything looked absolutely fine and it's still looking fine. Now I should see him for the final post-operative check.
I guess if not this week or probably the next one, but up to now, everything looks fine, looks fine. He's happy, he he's eating and he's doing incredibly well. He's mobile, he's able to .
Run around the garden, run around, his house. And he's doing, he's doing very well. I'm really, really happy with him.
And I think we were talking before about the fact that, you know, obviously a lot of people in the summertime keep their their tortoises out during the day, but obviously bring them in over the evening, but he disappeared and he ended up staying out on what was a cold and wet night and in those sort of situations because they they're cold blooded animals, they actually go in almost into a bit of a sense of torpor, don't they? Yes, being ectothermic, their metabolism is related to, to the external temperature and when it drops too much, for example, that, I don't remember specifically what night it was, but I remember that it was a quite a, cold and, and rainy night. They simply are unable to, to move because the metabolism is too low.
And rats and or rodents or wild animals take, take advantage. I say I blame in inverted commas rats because those aggressions, those traumas are or were very common, in Italy where I worked for many years, . During the hibernation period, so it's an assumption.
I cannot blame them 100%, but is a let's call it informed assumption. So when they are too cold, when they are below a certain temperature, they simply cannot react, and, and rodents and rats take advantage. And this was over quite a short period because I think he was found the next morning, morning, already with the injuries, but you made a really important point, you know, for vets and perhaps if clients are listening as well, if pet owners are listening, we often put our tortoises in sheds when they're hibernating for the winter in a box.
But as, as we all know, you know, rodents, mice and rats will nibble very easily through cardboard, won't they, and then get in. And obviously start attacking the actual tortoise that's in and inside. Yeah, correct, the, unfortunately that is the inverted commas, the traditional way to hibernate tortoises, but unfortunately it's not the best, because what you just mentioned.
But above all, because nowadays the winters are not that cold anymore. So here in the UK, the temperature drops to a limit where it will stop the stop, it will slow down the metabolism of, of reptiles, but not enough for a full hibernation and that can cause what is called a post-hibernation anorexia when and if they wake up. So the recommended.
Ways to hibernate Celonians is not the shed anymore but is the fridge, OK, that is much safer. You can control the pet much easier and it is more controlled and technically it will reproduce what happens in the wild where the temperature drops on a specific limit, a specific level, sorry. To allow them to get a proper and natural hibernation and then recover easily and nicely when it's time to to, to wake up.
And I suppose in Southern Europe where tortoises live. Do they often dig and bury themselves in the hibernation, so they're underneath the soil then aren't they in natural situations? Yeah, correct, and that is when they find their sweet spot of temperature and, and, and conditions.
Here in the UK I found two main problems. One is the temperature, and second, and less evident, let's put it this way, is the humidity. Here the humidity level is so high that even if they bury them in the garden, there is a high risk of fungal or bacterial infection because the softening of the carattin layer of the shell.
So it's not recommended to just leave them by themselves and doing whatever they. The instinct tell tell us to do. No, it's interesting, but I mean going back to to Eddie, you obviously put the you put the the wheels on.
Was that front and back or just on the front? Just on the front. I needed something to balance the the body.
Because otherwise the the shell would be will graze on the, on the floor, it will struggle to, to move because the, the grip of the of the of the shell on the floor, it would be not. Not possible for a normal, normal life. I have to say that I applied wheels and I'm not the only one who does that on previous tortoises, but most of the times it was just one leg, for traumas, etc.
Etc. Infection and, and so on. So once we amputate one leg, we apply either a wheel or a smooth.
Thing, OK, to allow them to slide, but also to balance, balance the body as level as possible. I think there is an advert for one of the famous, for one of the infamous or famous, however you want to call it, train companies where, where the tortoise is careering down the slopes with its, with its four wheels on and of course, It was probably a rather stupid question, so I apologise, Sergio, because with, with 4 wheels there wouldn't be much of a break for the poor old tortoise on a hill, would it? Well, 4 wheels I assume that it's not able to move, so.
But Eddie, as we said, appeared on BBC News Granada reports and even possibly we think went international as well, didn't he? The owner told me that she, she's been contacted by Fox News in the US, yes, I think it's the now the power of the internet and things because it's not just television, it goes on the internet, it goes onto YouTube, goes on social media and it very quickly becomes global a bit like. Webinar that once we, once we digitalized our education, took it just away from being physical to make it online, we've we've been able to have people from all over the world listen to our education, which is.
Which is great because obviously the standard is high in the UK and it's great that people were perhaps the standard isn't so high can actually also learn and things and and democratise learning as well. That is a nice interesting terminology. So how do you, when you're, you know, looking at exotics, have you got a particular favourite?
Species or or group of exotics that you particularly like or or do you find that you like it's it's always a difficult question. People say, do you prefer dogs to cats? Yeah.
I tend to, I tend to avoid it, but I'm, I'm asking you anyway. OK. I mean, I have to say that, yes, you're not the first one who asks me, ask me these, these type of questions.
I normally put, reptiles, and reptiles as first. Avian recently, I'm getting more and more interested, but, the bulk of our, our work is made on, small mammals, mostly rabbits. Plus I enjoyed and I still enjoy if I could, work with, with zoo animals, there are always fascinating, there are species that are not, you are not.
You don't see every day and you don't hear every day. And my, the, the weirdest one I worked with that was a marabou, and that was the ugliest bird ever, but at the same time beautiful, OK, so that was the fascinating, thing on working with zoo. No matter what, what you know, you have to adapt, to all the different species in, in the world.
I suppose the final question that we're we're doing this recording in early September and we'll start moving into those other creatures, those wild creatures that hibernate like hedgehogs. Is that something you see a lot of Brookland people bringing in hedgehogs? Well, wild hedgehogs, yes, unfortunately, yes, everybody, everyone around here sees a hedgehog that.
On his own and just take it and bring it to us, even if sometimes it's not really needed. Otherwise, wild animals are not my my main interest, let's put it this way, . We see African hedgehogs, so yes, we see hedgehogs, but while one, unfortunately, most of the times are.
We see them because people think that they are sick, but they actually are not, so. Yeah, and I think you make a really good point. It's the same with wild birds, sometimes people are bringing them in and of course it takes them away from their natural environment where maybe family is.
Exactly. And then taking them somewhere else and actually that can be really difficult. So it's always best.
If you do bring in a hedgehog and it stays in the vets for a day or two, then it does go back to its place where it is. We tend to do that, yes, we still tend to do that. And .
Any, any sort of plans for the future with, where do you see perhaps exotic medicine going? Do you think it's a, an area that is going to become more popular and and what's the big challenges, you know, around education? How can we get better at educating clients so they look after their exotic pets better?
OK, let's start from the last one, educating clients, . It would be, in my opinion, it would be extremely useful to to arrange meetings with people explaining them what they are getting into I don't know, make a evening in basic reptiles husbandry or basic avian husbandry or even basic rabbit husbandry and nutrition and so on and so on. The problem is that the people who will follow those things are people who have already, the animals.
Those things should be before, these things should be known before getting, getting a pet. And Regarding what where I see exotic and what I've seen from my beginning to now. The the growth was, and I think that is still quite exponential, OK, my, the main problem is probably now as a bit of a pessimistic way, views, but we are getting loads of vets that are interested in exotics and or they can get postgraduate certificate and so on and so on.
So the risk is that there will be too many exotic vets reducing the actual amount of of exotic cases, let's put it in this way, because instead of concentrating the, the, those cases in few places they would be scattered all over, all over the country. So from one point of view it is a good, good thing because more people will get more interested, more knowledgeable, more people, more chat, more chat, more knowledge, but at the same time there is a risk. I don't know how far fetched this view, but there is a risk of parcellating or reducing the amount of, of cases and actual work.
And it's what I've seen in Italy before, before moving here. You have less experience because you're seeing fewer cases in that particular area. Yeah.
And I think also sometimes. People, you know, have children who want a pet, and they actually say, well, we'll get you a lizard or we'll get you a rabbit. And in a lot of ways, the, the husbandry of that creature is, is much more challenging than, for example, having a cat, isn't it?
Yes and no. The, the challenge is just, in my opinion, it is just the beginning, OK, because once you, if I have to recommend a reptile, reptile's pet, I would recommend a snake. Easy, very good looking.
There are snakes that are amazing. Most of them are really tame. The only, the main problem is setting up the, the right tank, but once the tank is up and running, literally more or less every reptile is, is easy to, to keep, .
The, the main problem is setting up, investing, a little bit of time and a little bit of money because you have to invest in lights and tank and heaters and substrate and heat and so on and so on, and that is probably what put off a little bit the people at the beginning. And And steal the information that people, even if they are really willing but completely unaware of the type of animals they get. They get information from people who claims to be to be expert, but the expertise of those people probably if it is any is way outdated nowadays newer informations are coming out every month technically, but the information I see and I get from clients who get who had bought a new, new pet lizard.
And they come and say, oh, I heard they told me to do such and such, it's completely wrong, and I don't understand. Why? And that is where the education pre pre-purchase would, would make the difference.
Hm. And almost education through the vets because the vet is probably get well hopefully gonna know more than an enthusiast, yeah. Sergio, that's really great.
It's really interesting to get some of your insights. Great to hear about Eddie. I'm so pleased that he's doing better as well.
And, yeah, looking forward to hopefully seeing you at some point in the Northwest. We're we're both quite close, so it'd be great to see you at some point. Come along, I will, we will get a beer on my local pub here.
That sounds great. Sergio, take care, thanks again and thanks everyone for listening. Thank you very much, bye.
