Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet welcoming you to another one of our veterinary podcasts. Very fortunate today. I'm, I'm thrilled to have Kat Henstridge on the line.

Cat is obviously known by her various social media handles as Cat the vet, an expert blogger, a great person when I've met her as well, a veterinary surgeon, but obviously Cat, maybe if you'd like to introduce yourself. To the audience, and then we're gonna talk a bit about nutrition, but particularly looking at senior nutrition and maybe how we as vets and nurses actually know more than we think we, we do. So over to you just for a little intro.

Thank you very much, Anthony. Yes, hello everybody. My name's Cat.

I am a small animal vet in practise. I work two days a week, and I graduated from Bristol University in 2003. And I've been a small animal first opinion vet ever since.

But also, in addition to that, I am also known as Cat the vet, and I have social media pages on Facebook and other various platforms where I talk about the profession and pet health and education and just things that interest me in relation to the veterinary world. And I know when we were chatting, we share a, a common person in our history, Peter, Peter Holt, who I was lucky enough to know as my external examiner when I was doing, small animal exams up at Liverpool. I, I managed to actually pass, which was, was always my first goal, but I actually got a, a credit and it was because I, I think I knew he was going to be our.

Our examiner and I learned all about incontinence, which is, so I talked to a lot of piss and I managed to to get a credit which was, which was good cat, but I know you obviously studied under Peter at Bristol. I did, yeah, he was the man for we wasn't he? He definitely was, wasn't he?

What I really remember about him was how he was as a surgeon. So he was this, I mean, I was just a snotty little student, one of many, but it was really educational watching him because he would do all these fantastically complicated, soft tissue surgeries, but always, you know, he did not have any of the surgical arrogance. He didn't have, and I just, I really remember taking a bitch out that he'd done.

The the ectopic ureter surgery on and I was just like wandering about outside taking it for a wee and he he sort of ran after me and stopped me and the bitch stooped to do a Wii and he shoved his hand underneath her and caught it in his hand and I was horrified and he and I was like, why, why are you doing that? And he was like, oh, it's just, you know, because every time I do a surgery, I just, I do really worry about them, so I just want to make sure that that, you know, she's urinating well and everything is fine. And I was like.

Wow, this guy is one of the leading people in the whole wide world for these surgeries. And he is humble enough in his skills to follow his patient the next day to make sure she's OK, rather than just being like, well, I know what I'm doing, obviously it's gonna be fine. And that was just a real, you know, and you just sometimes you just think I'll never forget that, and that was a real learning point and a real thing for me to be like, you can just be as good, you can be the best person in the world, but you can still be humble.

In your skills and not assume and not be arrogant. And actually that's not something I've always carried. I mean, I'm not actually the most confident of surgeons, and I do worry about my patients quite a lot after I've operated on them, and they all turn out OK.

But it's one of the reasons why I really, really, really want to try to do all my own postdoc checks because I want to just check and that's that he taught me. And it's lovely to hear that because that humility . You know, I think it's important because you can get people who are very arrogant and it's not an attractive, .

Thing to to be, but maybe does it sometime hold us back, you know, particularly in nutrition where, You know, actually is that we know a lot about it, don't we, but sometimes we can perhaps, and I think it's also a British quality we can, we can sometimes . Not think it's very good to blow our own trumpet and therefore, we can let people who are obviously less knowledgeable, but are perhaps more confident at speaking at saying how they're an expert at nutrition and. You know, as a vet, as somebody who studied for 5 years, did animal husbandry, courses, etc.

Etc. And obviously as nurses as well, we know a lot about nutrition, don't we? Yes, you're absolutely right.

There is a there is a constant narrative online where I live a lot of my life, so I see it a lot, that vets don't know anything about nutrition. Why would you go and talk to a vet about nutrition? We only had 4 hours of lectures and it was all sponsored by Hills at university and we've never learned anything since and you know, don't speak to a vet, go to.

A nutritionist, which is completely unprotected title, or asking a forum online and the answer will 90% of the time be feed it raw and everything will be OK. And I think there is a certain What worries me is that I think a lot of veterinary professionals also live a life online and are animal fans so are in a lot of animal forums and that kind of thing and see this, and it does kind of feed a narrative into our own brains that we don't know what we're talking about, and we don't know about nutrition, because you're absolutely right. I think a lot of us do have that sort of second guessing, questioning nature about a lot of what we do, because.

We are educated enough to know what we don't know. And that's the key is, I don't know if you've heard of the Dunning Kruger effect where. The more educated you are, the less, confident you become in your opinions and your knowledge, because the more you know, the more you realise what you don't know.

I it's, you know, that sort of fundamentalism is never attractive, is it? And fundamentalists know what's right and they know what's wrong. Whereas, as you become more educated, you, you understand the nuance of life and you understand that life is actually, you know, shades of grey.

So actually you're much prepared to have a. A more nuanced conversation than just saying, no, you're wrong and I'm right, because again it's, it's not a, it's also not attractive or it's not a respectful way to deal with people, is it really? No, precisely, and that is the very nature of science is to question and to appreciate that knowledge always moves forward.

And to realise that there will be somebody else with a different level of knowledge or a different level of expertise than you. And we are at the end of the day actually really highly trained scientists, you know, the clue's in our name we're veterinary scientists and that science education doesn't stop, obviously, the minute you leave university, in fact, you could say that it barely starts after that. And science always moves on.

So, you know, talking about being humble, you do have to be humble and realise that you don't know everything and knowledge will move and change, you know, go back to Peter Holt, you know, when do bitches get incontinent? Is it because you spay them before the first season or after? And I think he did the work that said it didn't matter when you spayed them.

And then like 5 years later, more research came out to say, That it did matter for certain breeds and so on, it was nuanced as well, wasn't it, because what he said wasn't. Completely wrong, but it also wasn't completely right. I mean, my, one of my favourite vets in the whole world is a guy called Mike Willard, who's a gastroenterologist.

I think he's retired now, but he's done a lot of lectures, a lot of webinars for us, based out of Texas A&M. And he says what I told you 10 years ago was a lie, I just didn't realise. And actually he's being slightly flippant, but, you know, again, knowledge moves on, we become more nuanced in our thinking as well, and, and understanding it, the more you understand the condition, the more it brings other questions up, doesn't it?

Exactly, but what's really important in that point is to say what he told us 10 years ago wasn't a lie. What we've done is we've built on that knowledge, but that knowledge was not wrong at the time, and where the knowledge has gone subsequent to that, we have continued to follow the same path, because that's the only thing you see online with a lot of, you know, conspiracy theorists and these sort of, like you say, these fundamentalist opinions who believe, you know, natural is better and all that, is they will say, well. You might believe it now, but in 10 years the science is gonna move on and it's gonna tell you that you're completely wrong.

And you're saying that, well, no, what we're saying now is, is, is right to the best of our knowledge, and what we'll say in 10 years we'll be right to the best of our knowledge, but it will continue along the same path. You know they're still going to, so, you know, for example, in 10 years' time, we are still going to be feeding animals commercially prepared kibble and tinned food, because. Those commercially prepared kibble and tin foods are safe and they thrive on them, and no they don't cause cancer and no they don't.

Lead to all sorts of horrible problems like people are saying because there is no evidence, and it's vanishingly unlikely that any evidence will appear. In fact, what's going to probably improve is our knowledge of why those things occur and nutrition may well actually play a role in reducing their reducing their incidence, so. There is that, that again, there's that narrative and and I see some people now in in forums going poor vets.

They're doing their best with the knowledge that they've got, but they just don't realise that they don't know. And actually time's going to tell, and they point I I've seen the argument pointed to smoking, saying doctors used to say smoking was amazing and it was absolutely fine and you know, didn't cause any problems and and in that it's exactly the same for Kibble and I'm like actually like a long time ago and the evidence really stacked up and it and it but it is not, it is not, it's not the, it's not the same, but, but you're right, that narrative of. Vets don't know anything about nutrition, don't go to them.

Nutritional knowledge is is like completely incorrect. We have loads of training and then that training continues. I mean, I don't know how much you put on the webinar about nutrition, but actually it's a really, really, it's a really popular area of, of, of research.

I mean, your top webinars for the year have been nutrition webinars, haven't they because people are the ones that Sean McCormack did for you, because people are so desperate to learn and to know and and and to be educated. I think, you know, you're really right and obviously moving into the sort of senior field actually. As with all of these things, the more you think about it holistically, we are what we eat.

When you're looking at as a senior diet, as such, it's very difficult to have a, a, a senior diet for all dogs or cats, because of course they all have, as they grow older, more likely to develop conditions, so you actually need more of an individualised approach and that's can only come about with a deep understanding of, Physiology of pathology of the diseases that they get and how they can be treated. And I think as vets knowing that nutrition can be an incredibly important part of that. If you've got an overweight dog that's got arthritis, actually treating its obesity is incredibly important because that's gonna take load off the joints, isn't it?

Hugely, yeah, yeah, yeah. The interesting thing about senior nutrition is whereas with the puppies and with adults, and like neutered or not, we've got quite clear nutritional guidelines based on some incredibly solid research to know, you know, what levels of vitamins and minerals and calcium phosphorus ratios for the babies and, and, and, you know, calorie requirements and that kind of thing for the adults. But you're right, when it comes to senior animals, there is no set prescribed.

Levels of anything over and above what they have, we know what's set for adults because the health of our senior pets is so incredibly variable. But the, the reason we know that their needs are variable and the reason we know what to feed, you know, baby animals and adult animals is because of the research done by the science-based companies that the profession works with so closely. You know, and again that sort of corrects that conspiracy theory narrative that, you know, vets are all in the pocket of hills and Royal Cannon and Proplan and Purina, and we recommend those diets because we're all getting kickbacks and they've brainwashed us at university, whereas actually, again, we are veterinary scientists, these are science and research based companies doing the work, producing the stuff.

Refining the diets that we know are going to help our animals to thrive and be healthy, and that's why we recommend them and feed them. My cat's eaten Purina for years. But also, obviously as an animal gets older and gets sicker, we know that the importance of diets, I mean with kidney disease in cats, for example, if you were only able to get one treatment, you would give a kidney diet because it it doubles their life expectancy and I suppose.

In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, you know, dogs and cats live a lot longer now than they did 40 years ago, on average. Well, it, it's interesting. Do they or don't they?

Because there are life spans that are getting longer, but there's also lifespans that are getting shorter. And again, the internet will point its finger at diets and vaccines and, and wormers and chemicals and aren't they awful. But actually, the, I don't think we have an answer yet, but, what we, what we are seeing is The rise of pedigrees that have shorter life spans and more inbreeding and live breeding, so that's probably gonna have far more of an influence.

Like there's some, there's a statistic that 80% of human cancers are lifestyle related to some degree, and 20% are genetic, whereas in actual fact in in animals, it's, it's flipped on its head. 80% of of cancer is genetic. And actually when you think about that, that comes as no surprise because, you know, you've got your flat coat retrievers with their hemangiosarcomas and their Rottweilers with their osteosarcomas and the bull breeds with their mast cell tumours and you're like, actually that that does make, that does make a lot of sense.

But yes, the other, on the flip side, life spans are lengthening and that. Is down to probably, I'm not sure the proof is definitively out there yet and that's, that's what's important, it's the evidence before we make these like broad brush statements from scientists, not internet nutritionists, and a lot of that is down to better veterinary care, you know, less infectious disease thanks to vaccination, and better nutrition, and like you say, you know, the nutrition is. Fundamental to the treatment of so many chronic diseases, particularly when our pets get older, the, the work is incredibly clear.

If your cat has got renal failure and eats renal diet, the more it eats, the longer it will live and the better its quality of life. And that work's been done by the companies that produce those renal diets. And then this is the other thing that always is never, I don't think is ever discussed online, is that is that that research is published.

So when somebody else who's invented their diet around the kitchen table comes out and says, actually I'm going to create a renal diet, a lot of the nutritional levels of, you know, protein and phosphorus and all of those other different things that need to be in those diets, they know that because of the companies that they deride online. And, but they're not going to do a food trial on their diet to prove that it keeps kidney cats living longer, like Hills and Purina and Royal Cannon have done. They're just gonna feed it and hope for the best and, and never actually produce any work to prove their claims, which is again.

You know, from the public's point of view, not terribly important, but from a science-based profession's point of view, absolutely vital. And yeah, and it's the same for lots of other people right, liver disease, diabetes is a huge one, you know, you know, put a cat on a diabetic diet and you can potentially put it into remission. So diet has a huge impact, particularly in our senior pets, but it's, it's right that there is no one perfect, well there's no one perfect diet for any pet, are there, and that's why it's so amazing that we have got this huge array of diets, out there produced by.

Companies are not that animals will thrive on, but particularly when it, when they get older, there is a diet that's perfect for their lifestyle, but there is no prescribed diet because they're all so different. And this is where I think as vets we're very good because we often have a more general training, we can, we can look at this in a very holistic way and we're not dividing it into, it's all about nutrition because actually there will be other things involved, there will be some lifestyle changes. It may, as you say, be a breed problem.

We know that there's a lot of flat nose breeds. But also then the sort of drugs that we're using, you know, we're, we're bringing a lot of information and a lot of knowledge together and we're not saying actually just change the diet and everything, it'll be fine, it's more nuanced than that again, isn't it? Hugely, and I think that's the other thing where we completely underappreciate.

What we do and how we do it, and the level of knowledge and the level and the broadness and the depth of the knowledge that we have and the amount of threads we pull together in every 15 minute consultation for every patient to think, OK, you are a middle aged Labrador who's starting to get a little bit stiff, and you know, how are we going to fix this? Let's get you, like, you know, maybe you need some pain relief now, but let's. Look at your diet and see if we can get some weight off you.

What about joint supplements, what about physiotherapy and hydrotherapy, where, you know, how else are you doing in your life? You're absolutely right, there's and that overview that you use the word like overview is so, so important and that's what. You know, there are other animal professionals obviously in the healthcare world, and they, a lot of our para professional colleagues do an amazing job, but there is no profession that has.

The overview that the veterinary profession does that sees the variety of patients in the variety of illnesses and appreciates the full gay of treatments and options and and stuff that there are, there are for them. And I think sometimes that's why vets have this really unique perspective on the animal world that is underappreciated by ourselves, but also by other people, you know, so if an animal nutritionist is just. You know, regardless of their level of qualification, which sometimes can be fairly dire, you know, they, they only ever deal with one aspect of the pet, whereas we deal with the whole aspect and see.

A huge variety of animals. As, as well, so we do have that overview that is just, again, completely underappreciated, particularly by ourselves, I think. Cat, I, you know, I absolutely agree with what you're saying.

I think this has been. Really useful. I suppose let's continue to be humble, but let's also realise that we, these are conversations that we can have and should have with clients and, and not feel nervous about having them because we have an obligation because if we're not having the con the conversation they're often getting, Poor advice from, from these other people, the nutritionists, the breeders, etc.

Etc. Absolutely, people want to know, and it is a brave vet who says, what are you feeding, and the answer comes back and they say raw, and the vet then goes, well that's an interesting choice, why have you chosen to do that? Because the opinions that often lead to diets like that are so completely entrenched and those conspiracy theories are so rampant.

That very often unfortunately, the, the, the, the mind of the client is made up and you know, any gentle probing is seen as an attack because that's how they've been trained to view it online, but unfortunately, we are the animal's voice and their welfare is what, you know, is why we went into this job, so we, we are sort of. It's a these these conversations are not easy to have, especially, especially around nutrition, but actually a lot of pet owners really do want to know and and are reaching out to other sources, and that's why it's so, and that's why the team is so important, you know, because I don't have time in a 15 minute consultation always to really, really drill down into. You know, nutrition and lifestyle, you know, that holistic view, that the holistic word is, is, has been hijacked by, in my opinion, by our alternative colleagues to mean something completely different, whereas actually holistic is what vets do all the time, and actually the team, you know, that our veterinary nurse colleagues, and our reception colleagues, we all have that unique overview and we all have that.

Depth of knowledge and we can actually all together help these animals because nutrition is such a big part of lifestyle and health, and it's not the only part, but it actually plays a huge role, and we know far more than we think we do, and we are able to advise far more expertly than we probably think we do, and the impact we can have on animals' lives with that information is massive. Cat, I couldn't have said it any better myself, so I'm gonna say thank you so much, thanks everyone for listening, I hope you've enjoyed it. Do look out for all of er Kat's handles if you want to follow her on.

Insta or wherever else. Come and tell me what you think about this subject. I'd love, I, I would love, I will post this post podcast on my, on my channels when it comes out, and I'd, you know, I'd love to have a chat in the comments about, about this and about how the profession and animal and also pet owners view it as well.

It'd be really interesting to know. Well, and I think this is the thing in the end, if people are advocates of, of raw diet, we can say what we think. But in the end, in a respectful way, if they want to continue feeding it, then that is their prerogative, but we know that we've at least spoken about it and we've, we've covered that particular base.

Absolutely. There's ways to do it safely and there's ways to mitigate the risks and there's pros and cons to every dietary choice. And it's incumbent on the profession to, you know, open up those conversations, I think, for the betterment of the pets there are in our care.

Cat, thank you so much and er hopefully speak to you again soon. Bye bye. Bye.