Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. Today I am joined by Tasha Walsh and I'm really looking forward to discussing a topic that I don't know an awful lot about but should know a lot more about, which is ASC and ADHD in women and how it can go unnoticed and undiagnosed. So first of all, I'll introduce Tasha.
So Tasha is a relation relationally trained counsellor and clinical supervisor. She has a DDP level one and she is certified auto play therapist. Tasha worked in schools therapeutically with children and their families for several years before she founded, seen and heard therapy.
Her ethos is to support all CYP and their families so that no matter what they feel seen, heard, and supported. Tasha also has a special interest in therapeutically supporting, advocating and offering training in neurodiversity. So welcome, Tasha, thank you for being here today.
Thank you for having me, it's lovely to be here. So before we get started, can I just ask what made you, work in this area? I think it started working in schools with children, initially, because I was seeing the sort of stereotypical angry boys, and, and being asked to do anger management with them, and actually when they were in the room with me, they weren't angry at all, and a lot of it was frustrations at not being able to, I guess stay in classrooms or even know how to do the work and, and then became disruptive as a result of that.
So that was sort of the first bit and then the second bit was sort of with girls in particular. We had a lot of school refusers and high anxiety and nobody kind of was asking questions around why that was. So that kind of got me thinking about it a little bit, .
And then it just so happened my son at the time was in year 2, year 3, and we were starting to have some difficulties with him in school. I kind of thought he might be AD ADHD for a while, . And sat on some training and when they were talking about it, I was just like, oh my God, that's him.
And then as they carried on I was like, oh, I'm pretty sure that's my husband as well. So I kind of came home and had that conversation with my husband who was like, no, no, he's just a boisterous boy just like I was, and I was like, yeah, but you both do things not every boy you do. Oh wow, all kinds of clicks.
Yeah, just went from there, really. We went, we went and got him privately assessed because the waiting list was just ridiculous to get him assessed and I wanted it doing before he went to high school. Yeah, and he was, he, they said, yeah, absolutely ADHD.
And they did make a point in the assessment of saying, hm, and maybe your husband might want to look into this as well. And that's kind of where it started, and interesting we'll, we'll, we'll go on to talk about, females. My, my daughter's 18 and she was diagnosed about 18 months ago with ADHD, and it took a lot longer for even me to realise that that's, that's what it was because her presence.
Is so different to males. So even with all that knowledge, it took me a long time to, to see that in her, yeah. Oh wow.
OK, so what is, what is ADHD? How would you sort of describe ADHD to us? So ADHD and autism come under an umbrella called neurodiversity, and that will also include Tourette's, dyslexia, dyscalcular, dysgraphia, and things like that.
But with ADHD that's basically a shortage of dopamine being produced in the brain and it's dopamine that we need to give us focus and concentration. So when that . Not enough, that's when we get difficulties in short attention span and things like impulsivity, and things like making mistakes, so you might find that within children, when you see them doing the writing, they're constantly crossing it out or rubbing it out, things like that, and what you will see is obviously the hyper.
Behaviours everybody associates with ADHD, but a bit like autism, it's on a spectrum, so you're not gonna see it at the same rate as you're gonna see in in everyone and obviously with. ADHD, it's, it's split into three categories. So you've got your hyperactive impulsive, your inattention, which is your things like forgetting, not being able to organise yourself, losing things, making mistakes, and then you've got a combined diagnosis of all of it.
So you have to get 6 out of 9 traits in each category to get one of the categories and across the two categories to get a combined. So my son is combined, he has all of the elements. My daughter, which is why it was harder to, to get her diagnosed, is, predominantly inattentive, so she doesn't necessarily have a hyperactivity.
She gets hyper burst and she can have some impulsiveness, but not enough to kind of get that combined. Interesting, yeah, and, and is there an overlap with Like autism and ADHD as well. Yeah, I mean, there's a massive overlap.
What we're coming to realise is it, the evidence suggests that it's about 20% of the population is not a divergent, so it's under that umbrella 20%. What we're also realising is I think it's roughly about 40% of, of, people that maybe get an autism diagnosis will then get a secondary diagnosis of ADHD and vice versa. And we'll also have up to 6 other co-occurring conditions which might be you're autistic with ADHD or you're autistic with dyslexia, but they all support anxiety and depression within those co-occurring disorders as well.
So where autism, the, the traits for autism are more things like taking things literally, having to have the same routines, Planning things really carefully and then them not changing and becoming distressed if they do communication difficulties, not understanding social rules, are the characteristics of autism. Yeah. The ones that everybody used to think were autism are the ones that were realising are the overlap where they're in the present in both, and that's things like sensory issues, hyperfixation, so.
With ADHD being a a difficulty in attention and focus, people think that that's present all the time and it's not with ADHD analystism you can have to fixate on one thing. So actually if something interests somebody with ADHD they'll over. Be attentive to it, to the point where you can't get them away from it.
OK, and so that's a crossover stimming, you might see that that's where somebody might, that's where fidget spinners come, you know, something in the hands, you might see kind of flapping motions, talking a lot, how to make friends, social difficulties. The big ones are what we call emotional dysregulation. So that's where emotions get too heightened and that they become uncontrollable, and that's whether it's overexcited or whether that's anger or upset.
So that's where meltdowns come in. And adults can have their own version of a meltdown as well. In females, it tends to be what we call a shutdown, where they literally, everything shuts down.
So they might look like they've almost froze. Oh wow. So that's across both and that's emotional dysregulation.
And then the other one that's quite big across both is rejection sensitivity. So they see, any kind of slight as a criticism or a rejection. So even it could be an innocent passing comment and that will hurt them like to their core, getting a B instead of an A in a piece of work.
And the friendship difficulties. So those are the two big emotional difficulties that are present in both. Mhm.
OK, wow. So why do you think it is that it goes, or it can be so, you know, misdiagnosed or undiagnosed for such a long time? I think because some of the traits can overlap with trauma, and.
There's probably still a little bit of conflict between people that work with neurodiversity and people that work with with trauma, . A lot of people within this area think that it's underdiagnosed because a trauma diagnosis is given and vice versa. They think too many people are diagnosed with ADHD and autism it should be trauma.
The reality is, is that usually they're hand in hand and both present because somebody with autism and ADHD is something like 30% more likely to be vulnerable. And therefore have trauma happen. So I think the difficulty is when the traits are very similar to trauma, how do you separate, which came first, a bit of a chicken and egg, so I think that's one reason.
And I think the other reason is, some of the traits can also, be present in something like bipolar. You know, if you think of ADHD, it's heightened emotions. Some you can be hyper excited bouncing off the walls and the next minute you're on the floor crashing.
A bit like that with bipolar. So I think a lot of it is the understanding where, not where they overlap, but where they're different. And actually, autism and ADHD have some very, very different traits that are not present in trauma or bipolar.
So I think it's awareness, understanding and training, which slowly but surely is starting to change a little bit now. Brilliant. And you touched upon as well how it can be much harder for females to get diagnosed than males.
Yeah, yeah. So what we're finding. Especially since the pandemic, we're probably diagnosing as many women as men now.
However, within children, I think it's something like for one girl diagnosed, there's 3 boys diagnosed. So it's still being massively missed, in, in children and in and in girls. So it's taking a lot, a lot of females to wait until well into their adulthood.
To get that support and help and understanding for themselves, and they'll have had a lifetime of, low confidence and self-esteem and failures with relationship or work because they've not understood or they've not even known that they could have been this. And I think it's because they just present so much differently to, to males. And I guess being undiagnosed for such a long period of time, you know, must have such a huge impact on them long term as well.
Absolutely, yeah, I think it's. You know, what we're seeing is a lot of girls, and this is what I was seeing in schools. You know, they might present as being very quiet and very vulnerable, and a lot of the stats now are suggesting that, that, you know, a lot of them from pregnancies are coming from that, especially if they've got impulsive tendencies as well, but also because they're wanting to fit in or they're wanting to be socially accepted, so they may, do things that they don't necessarily want to do or .
You know, with peer pressure, haven't, got the support to be able to say no, you know, we're seeing a lot of girls being pulled into things like, sexual exploitation and the counter lines, and things like that. So there's a lot of emotion. Physical harm that can come to females when they're not diagnosed, as well as school failures, like failing exams and then maybe not being able to step into careers that they may have wanted and, and jobs.
And then it can lead into, to, you know, volatile relationships that are, are harming for them. So there's a whole. Bag of things that can be really detrimental to somebody if they don't understand why things may keep happening to them or what leads them down that path or why they can be so vulnerable.
Mhm. Yeah, absolutely, it's so important, isn't it, that they get that diagnosis. And what sort of advice would you give to a person, with ADHD who, you know, wanted, I guess at some sort of tips for how they can improve, you know, their workplace life, their personal life, are there any sort of tips that you would have to share with those people?
Yeah, I think . With, with, I guess it whatever neurodiversity you have even sort of things with dyslexia and and and things like that because again some of their traits will overlap. I think people just think like something like dyslexia is, is a difficulty reading, but it's not, you know, there's a lot of other things that can, impact their working life as well.
So I think anybody that's not a divergent, firstly, don't be ashamed to tell your workplace, you know, there's legislation in place now to. Ensure that workplaces are more inclusive and that actually reasonable adjustments, just like in schools should be made for somebody and actually it shouldn't be something that stops them either getting a job or stops them progressing within a job. So be honest about it, and don't be afraid to ask for the adjustments you may need, but also.
Be confident that as much as there are the difficulties with having one of one of these sort of diversities, there's also some characteristics of neurodivergent individuals that are brilliant, you know, they are specialised thinkers and a lot of research suggests that neurodiversity is evolutionary. You know, that is needed to be able to solve some of the more complex problems in the world that we face now. So actually, the world has evolved and humans have evolved to, to combat that.
So I think it's, you know, be confident, you know. Know your strengths, you know, somebody with dyslexia has got, you know, can have talents of of pattern spotting, for example, and creative thinking, you know, people with ADHD have got problem solving strengths, they can multitask really well. And also because of that slight impulsivity, honed in the right way can take calculated risk that somebody else might be too afraid to do.
You know, somebody with autism has got analytical thinking. And even people with Tourette's have got energetic personalities and creative personalities and Acute perception and things like that. So it's know your strengths and not just where your challenges are.
And so when you walk into a workplace or even in life, be proud of that and look at what you can do. Mhm. Yeah, no, that's brilliant advice.
We've, we did a podcast actually, last week, and we were talking about being in flow in work and it was very much along those lines, you know, recognising what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, and just having that communication with your team to try and get the best out of them. Yeah, wonderful, definitely. I think it's, I think in any walk of life, that's, that's important to do, but as humans, we have this tendency, don't we, to put ourselves down and not pick ourselves up and, and we shouldn't really.
Mhm. No, absolutely. So from your sort of experiences over the years, what issues have you seen in the workplace that we should be aware of and then obviously try and avoid?
I think, I was talking to a client about this, a couple of weeks ago actually, when, when I'd said I was coming on this, and she's, she's 47 and she's only been diagnosed with ADHD for a few years, and she literally has gone through her life kind of like what I was talking about earlier where. Just things have been so chaotic and work has been very challenging and for her and a number of other people that I've spoken to, one of the biggest things was bullying, and, and feeling forced out of jobs. And I think that came not from people being malicious, but people just not understanding, .
The, you know, no divergent individuals can have these difficulties in communicating how they feel, what they need, people's perception of them can be, oh, they're a bit standoffish or they're a bit this, you know, and mistakes will happen within their work if the adjustments are not in, and then they feel like they're constantly getting targeted or reprimanded and, and those situations can escalate, if they're not resolved properly. So I think that's one of the biggest things, and I think then the other parts within the work is is stress and a lot of stress related illness, which can be really easily combated with really small adjustments. Mhm.
OK, no, that's great advice, and how do we, how can we educate people on this more so that we can provide more inclusive workplaces? Well, I think podcasts, podcasts like this, which is wonderful, and I'm, and I'm just really happy that, you know, people are doing more things like this. And obviously, I know you guys, you know, had me in before doing some training.
So just companies like yourself, just being more open to it. I think workplaces, as a matter of course, like they might do safeguarding type training should do ND awareness training. I think everybody should be aware of it and especially anybody in a position of management and and looking after other people, and there's loads of resources online, so places like ADHD Foundation, fabulous, and then there's embracing complexity and autistic.
They're, they're doing lots of research on workplace, inclusiveness and legislation and things like that. So whether you have any issues yourself in the workplace, that would be somewhere you can go, or if you're a workplace that wants to be inclusive, you could go there and they can give you the guidance on what you need to do. Mhm.
OK, amazing, sounds good. And would you be happy if People wanted to reach out directly to you, would you be OK with that? What's the best way for people to do that?
So my website and socials are updated a lot and I put lots and lots of resources on there that people can access, and if you can, if you want any questions on, you can email me, . And you know, I'm open to having chats with people if you can get me because I'm absolutely ridiculously busy with sessions at the moment, as you can imagine, with mental health concerns like through the roof at the moment. So in terms of sessional work, I'm, I'm crazy, but I'm happy to chat at any other time.
Oh, thank you. And we'll, I can get all those links off you as well, and we can put them up on the blog when we send this out. Oh Tasha, thank you so much.
Are there any any final comments or anything you want to share before we, we finish the podcast? No, just if anybody has any concerns that they are not a divergent in some way, you know, please reach out to someone and just get some support. I, you know, and, and if this podcast does anything for anybody, if it highlights.
A couple of traits that resonate with anybody or, you know, any difficulties that we've talked about and they, it's what they've experienced and it, they're questioning. Don't be afraid to, to do, you know, something about it. It's, it's never too late.
Like I said, my client got diagnosed at 45, and it's changed her life. So, yeah, just don't be afraid to. Yeah, amazing.
I actually saw, I think it was yesterday or the other day on Instagram, . One of the Love Island contestants had just been diagnosed at, I think, 31, 32, something like that, and he was, he was saying in his caption, you know, he was having trouble processing it and he just needed that time, but it just, as you say, it just goes to show, you know, it doesn't matter what age you are. It's, you know, it's so important.
I think if anybody wanted to watch anything, I don't know, whether you'd seen the Christine and Paddy McGuinness documentary about their autistic children, and Christine McGuinness through that process of talking about it realised that she was autistic, and so that was really powerful and then I think last night I've not watched it yet, so I don't know if it's any good, but . One of the housewives of Cheshire, is it Tanya Bardsley, she's done a documentary on. Realising recently that she was ADHD and me and Pat's had on her, so there, it's, it's getting out there so there's things for people to watch as well to maybe have a look at.
Yeah, OK, brilliant. Oh no, it's great that so much awareness has been generated now, isn't it? And yeah, thank you so much again for being here today and, for sharing your story and your advice.
And yeah, as I said, we will get the links to everything up on our blog as well when we go live. Thank you, lovely, thanks, Tasha. Thank you.
Bye.
