Hello, Anthony Chadwick from Vet Chat. Really thrilled to have Chantel Branwood on our podcast today. Chantel is the founder of Eco Offset, and we're gonna be talking about the whole premise of that company in in a moment and, and some of the other fabulous things Chantel's been doing in the whole area of sustainability.

But particularly helping us in the veterinary world, because of course, Chantelle, you're, you're well known certainly, to many of us having worked with Simply Health for a number of years. But, but tell us a little bit about your background and, and what's got you or what got you interested in, in the whole area of energy efficiency, sustainability, carbon offsetting and everything. Yeah, no problem.

Well, thank you, Anthony, for having me on. It's an absolute pleasure. So yeah, as you said, I was at Simply Health, with pet health plans for a number of years, and before that I worked at VAC.

So I've, I've met yourself and many other vets over the last 10 years. I decided to move into sustainability about 18 months ago now after, leaving my previous role after having a baby, and I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different, something that would give me the chance to always give something back to different companies that I've worked with. So I decided to help a community interest company called Vet Sustain, which you'll probably be familiar with.

The team there are absolutely amazing. Everybody's a volunteer and looking at how we can drive sustainability through the vet profession. So whether that's at practise level with our greener practise checklist to working with new grads coming through, within the vet schools and looking to try and embed sustainability within that educational piece right at the start of their career.

So after working with them for a few months, I decided that I liked it that much. I wanted to try and do something on my own with it. So I looked at the various routes into how we work with businesses looking at their sustainability strategy.

Looking at how they can become more green, for the, the, the two angles really because it is the right thing to do. We all need to sort of take responsibility for our own activities, whether that's in our personal life or within our business activities and With my background in the commercial and operation side of working with practises and with other businesses really, it, it makes good business sense. You can, you can help to make a difference on your carbon emissions and make a difference on the environment and at the same time you can have an impact on your overall costs, help with your marketing and retention and recruitment of staff too.

So there's a lot of different angles that appealed. So went through quite a rigorous 12 months of learning. I managed to get quite a few certificates in environmental management, and environmental auditing, so I sold 14,0001 and carbon management and reduction planning too.

So there is an element of Being able to deal with businesses on a daily basis from your experience, but you can't block it. You do need to know what you're talking about. It is a sensitive area.

You do need to know the science behind it. So we've got those skills, we've embedded them and we're working with some really fantastic customers now. One of one of them is yourself, obviously.

So it's, it's been a good 1st 12 months and really looking forward. Forward to to the next, hopefully more. Yeah, and I think it's such an important area, but before we maybe concentrate a bit more on, you know, exactly what you're doing, it was really interesting in, in this series of sustainability podcasts that we're doing.

You know, we had Craig Benetton, who's the CEO of the Wildlife Trusts. And one of the things he said, and this was interesting because of course he is in Tibet, he said, you know, you as vets are a really important member of the community and actually people look towards you for things like, you know, animal welfare and, and, and looking after animals well, but also. From an environmental perspective, this is, as you say, getting bigger, it's gonna help with retaining staff, which we know is an issue, as well as it just being the right thing, which is obviously why, you know, I'm doing it, I'm very passionate about the environment.

But, but I think it's a real opportunity just because it's the right thing to do for vets to show, show leadership in their local communities as well, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah, you're at such a position of You're at this cross section where people trust you with, you know, some of some of the pets are the most precious things that that we have, so they're coming to you, they're asking your opinion on all sorts of things, and it's a real chance to engage with the community, a lot of the families that come in as well, you know, the clients that bring the three children in as well as the dogs for the injections, which can cause mayhem, but actually it's a brilliant time to try and bond with them and get the, the children on board as well, because It it is a position of influence. They do listen to you as a profession when you talk to them, and they see you as very ethical.

They look for your lead on almost what is the right thing to do. So we should really be not taking advantage of it because that's not the right way to look at it, but, but using that platform to, to enable them to do the right thing as well, because Pet ownership in itself isn't particularly sustainable. It is very much a sort of privileged position.

It's a treat to be able to have a pet to afford one, to afford the veterinary care as well. So there are ways that we can make pet ownership more sustainable, but people wouldn't even know that without their vets telling them how to do that. So it's that education piece as well, not just around.

If you're in a particularly nice area of the world, you can say, well, you know, these are the things that we're doing to protect our local environment, but actually on a global scale, pet ownership. Does have an impact, and these are the things that you can do with your own dog that will help to reduce that. And obviously you've got your large animal vets dealing with the whole issue of agriculture and food production as well, which I think Simon touched on in your previous podcast.

You know, that, that's a, that's a massive one looking at new regenerative agriculture and supporting the farmers and how they can actually. Make sure that the animal welfare of their livestock is is kept at the highest possible level, but how do we do that while also being conscious that, Soil degregation, some ways of handling that livestock isn't great for for CO2 levels at the same time. So it's a real powerful position for vets in small and large animals to be able to influence their clients, whether that's somebody with one cat or a farmer with 2000 head of cattle, that you, you are a real sort of cross section of society there.

Being able to speak to those, I mean it was really interesting, we did a. Food security, symposium for the World Veterinary Association, and it's some of these very clever people working on, on this whole area, obviously cattle emit quite a lot of methane, which is a, a, a more potent greenhouse gas as you know, than carbon dioxide, but actually, Somebody found that adding a very small amount of seaweed onto their feed would massively reduce the amount of methane that they were emitting. So those of you who haven't listened to that, it's a really interesting symposium and Charlie can definitely leave the link for it, but.

You know, even smaller things, Sean Wensley, I was talking to during the podcast series about the, the wildlife garden that they built at one of the PDSA hospitals here in Liverpool. It's a great place for the bees to and the er the butterflies to congregate, but it's also a lovely space for the team to rest in between seeing animals, you know, at lunch times and coffee breaks. And of course it helps to keep them, you know, more calm and more in touch with the natural world as well, so a lot of these things are combined, aren't they, Chantelle.

Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a real, you know, we say that nature is therapeutic, so people say, you know, when you're stressed, try and take 10 minutes out of the workday you can nip out at lunchtime, even for 5 minutes to have a cup of coffee somewhere, like you say, where there is a bit of a wildlife garden, you can actually hear the birds. We know that during the first few lockdowns where, you know, we really had to all stay at home and the vet teams were.

Still managing to go into work and look after all of our pets, which was amazing. But for those of us that had to stay at home and, and couldn't support that, more people were spending time outside. So if they didn't have their own garden space, we all, we all went on our, our daily walk.

And even though we might have got bored to death of them after a few weeks, It seems to have really given people a new appreciation of the areas that they live. For some people, the lack of trees and the lack of green space that they were able to access. So we, we're at this real sort of tipping point now where I've personally seen in the last few months as we come out of that period and hopefully don't go back into it.

So many more people seem to be engaged, wanting to do, you know, how do we do a little bee friendly patch outside the practise? Is there a way for us to, you know, sort of bring nature indoors? So it has shown people that it can help your well-being, especially in times of big, big stressful events as we saw last year.

And of course I think as you alluded to, you know, even having a dog or a cat, there's a carbon cost to that, and I know you're also developing on the Eco Offset website the opportunity for us to offset our own personal carbon, but also our pet's carbon footprints as well, aren't you? Yeah, we do offset your pet. So my Labrador Oreo, she's carbon neutral.

We're working with some pet practises so we're looking at adding that into their pet health plans. So, you know, for an extra fee over the year, you can offset the carbon footprint, as we say, of your own pets, and the carbon footprint of pets generally comes down to the food that we feed them. And it's quite simplistic to say, oh, you know, if they're on a beef or a lamb diet, switch them to chicken or fish, .

If your beef diet is actually fed using off cuts of beef, that's going to be less carbon heavy than if your chicken diet is actually fit for human consumption and is and is being bred in different ways. So it is quite complex and I don't know if you've seen there's a lot of plant-based and insect-based pet foods coming onto the market now, which is really interesting, but, again it depends on the pets and it depends on the owner. Some people, if you say to you know, a pet owner, or we've got these insect-based diets, they just wouldn't even entertain it.

But again, I think that's gonna shift over the next 12 months, 5 years. So there are other ways that we can help them to, become more sustainable. So compostable poo bags, you can actually compost, some dog toys, so it's just sort of those little choices.

If, if all of us are making these small little carbon savings across our daily lives together, that's going to make up a massive, massive difference than one of us trying to go the whole hog and be do absolutely everything, but everybody else carrying on as normal. It's not going to make that difference. We all need to make those small little changes where we can.

And this, you know, I remember seeing the Greta Thunberg programme and, and very much we can emit a certain amount of carbon into our atmosphere before we go above what the Paris Convention said was the ideal, which is, you know, nothing's ideal, but we don't want to go above 1.5, 2 degrees. And we have probably about this decade where if we continue to use carbon at the same level, we will in fact go above that level and then, you know.

Presumably much more likely to see some of the weather patterns that we've seen recently, you know, warmer summers here, stunnier summers, but also wetter summers, and of course we've seen the the tragedy unfolding in Germany recently with the terrible floods, so this is a real, You know, it's not a potential risk. There is a real climate emergency happening, and perhaps we in the rich West are not seeing it quite as severely as some of the island states where islands have just disappeared under the, under the ocean as the as the waters have risen. Yeah, and, and we, we have what we, we call climate inequality, where it tends to be the more developed Western world that emits all of these carbon emissions, but actually it's the, the poorer countries who their carbon footprint is tiny compared to to ours, and they're the ones that are suffering drought, wildfire, they haven't got enough food, the crops being ruined, so it.

I think it's felt so far away, but seeing that the events I used the last few weeks, you've had the floods in Germany, which, to see that from such an advanced country was quite shocking. But then, even in the UK, we had a heat wave, and then two days later, the underground stations in London were flooded. And that is just so shocking to see that in the UK.

And I think, again, that has just made the conversation seems to exploded around, that's not normal, but it will become. More and more often, and we're going to have to adapt to deal with that if we don't adapt to our own lifestyles to try and prevent it getting to that point. I mean it would be great and I don't know what your, you know what your mission is, but if I, if I can make a suggestion, if, if we as a profession, as an industry became carbon zero or or even carbon negative by using things like solar panels.

More efficient use of our energy, using renewable energy to power our practises, safe for anaesthetic gases, this would be, you know, a fabulous legacy and a fabulous lead for, for other industries to follow, wouldn't it? Yes, definitely, and, and there's so much happening already. We've seen, you know, Linnaeus have done a really big drive within their group.

They, they've they've stamped out the use of nitrous oxide, which is, is a really potent greenhouse gas. And there's not that many practises that will be using that. Such an easy switch.

And also, you know, as you say, solar panels, if you've got the facilities, that's fantastic. If you've got EV charging space for electric vehicles outside that you can that you can utilise, again, that's brilliant but you can even take it down to a level of Have you got your tumble dryer on every single day cleaning out, you know, to use for scrubs and for, for bedding? What about putting it out when the weather's nice, making sure it's on a maiden outside in a drying rack?

I mean, that sort of stuff is so basic, but a tumble dryer uses loads of carbon, it produces loads of carbon emissions just for one hot cycle. And if you're doing that 3 or 4 times a day. Are all the lights being switched off in the practise when you leave at night?

Has your air conditioning been put onto an automated system where if somebody opens the windows or keeps the door open, it switches off because you tend to get in that space where you've got the air conditioning billowing out and all the heating on in winter, and somebody in the back has propped open the window because it's absolutely boiling. So it's having that sort of intelligent. Control that almost makes it easier for us while we try and get these new behaviours instilled in each of us, cause even small things like that will have such a big difference.

I was gonna say when I developed my practise 1213 years ago in, in Muirhead Avenue, just putting light sensors on that if you went out of a room and you forgot to turn out the light, and let's face it, we've all done it. You know, within a short period of time those lights go off, that can save massive amounts of energy as well, can't it? And of course, energy metering now is becoming more common, so we become more aware of it and we can keep a closer watch on it as well.

Yeah, it's been, it's the awareness piece as you're saying, and particularly healthcare, the carbon footprint is huge that there are some things that have to be single use plastics because we need it to be sterile and we need to make sure that patient safety is the highest priority for all of us, but we know that. There's around 86,000 tonnes of waste that comes for incineration from single use plastics every year and that's that's across the NHS. We don't have the figures for for that new practise just yet, but it's this sort of.

Overproduction and because we're not in that place of where we can use plant-based plastics just yet because the technology isn't there, we're we're throwing so much stuff away that where we can recycle, we really need to be making sure that that we are putting things in the correct bins and looking at those how to recycle things, which is potentially the pet food bags and PPE. There's new providers out there now that can actually recycle your, Face masks, they can recycle the big sort of food packages and the pouches, things that previously would be really difficult and would have gone to landfill. So it's it's those small steps within practise that if you're doing 20 of them, that's gonna have a massive impact but for relatively little effort.

Yeah, and I remember, Hannah was actually from Hannah James from Bet Partners was on telling us about this because of course she'd she'd brought in the, the company to, to collect all of the plastic rubbish. I believe, Zoe Havari spoke at a webinar for us and it's between 5 and 8% of medical plastic that is recycled, so, you know, 95% isn't, it's a massive, massive number and. These are all areas just, I think as you've said before, thinking mindfully, we're all very much talking about mindfulness now, but thinking mindfully about our, our interaction with the planets will often mean that we'll go a bit more gentle on the planet by recycling a bit more and so on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And recycling isn't perfect. I think we've seen in the press quite a lot recently how some of the big recycling manufacturers.

That we trust to take away our waste. They're actually the transporting it to another country where it just piles up. So there's a, there's a brilliant line in Jen Gale's book.

So Jen Gale is, is a vet, but she's now an environmental campaigner she's brilliant. And in her book Sustainable-ish, which is highly recommend, she says, you know, when you think about it when you're throwing something away, there is no away. It's, it's either going to landfill or it's going to go and be incinerated.

So what, what can we do to either use that to repurpose it, or, or should we be buying it in the first place. So it really is thinking about how we, you know, when you think of a carbon footprint, how do you tread lightly and, and make, you know, try and leave as little mark as possible while, while we're doing that. Well, Chantelle, we went off to the beach last week as part of Plastic Free July to collect plastic off the beach and, and actually Craig Bennett evangelically but I actually agree with him, said, You know, in some ways we should just stop using plastic because that plastic, Goes everywhere, you know, there are these huge plastic areas in the ocean which the currents have sent things to.

But also, you know, those plastics do start to biodegrade and microplastics are being found in animals, in people as well. And we really don't know all of the long term health problems that that will bring, so. The the best thing that we need to start working towards is almost.

No use of plastic, this miracle product that was probably, you know, only really started being used in big amounts, sort of post Second World War, has become something of a poison chalice, hasn't it? Yeah, definitely. And, and people forget as well that plastics are made from oil.

So it, it's sort of a double whammy that when we're using fossil fuels to produce it and then we can't get rid of it. And it is a wonder material. It does definitely have uses, but the problem comes into this huge, which, which most of our climate problems come from this mass over consumption.

And then no, no way to really process it at the end of life. So, yeah, reducing our plastics is, is a huge, huge focus, but it's, it is a global effort, but you can certainly commit to try and use less on your life. And I know you did personally quite a lot, didn't you, for the plastic feed you like.

So it's, it's trying to, it's hard to keep that up though, because we're so reliant on it. But if we can just cut back. Again, everybody by 10, 20%, that is a huge collective effort then.

I think over the last year or two I've really made a commitment not to use plastic, you know, a plastic, drink a Coca-Cola, if you want to have something like that, you know, a tin is actually much better. Than a plastic bottle because aluminium is, is much more easier to recycle. And, and actually, you know, we as a family we try very hard not to take plastic when we go out shopping.

Now clearly there's always a little bit, but you know we take our own bags out. If something's heavily packaged in plastic, we'll probably try not to use it, although, you know, I still buy yoghurt pots and things, so I'm not perfect, but I probably, you know. More than halved my use of plastic just by looking at the alternatives that are out there.

We've just found a shop quite close to us that actually allows you to go in with receptacles and fill them up, which is a, you know, another amazing thing that you see individual, you know, run by a local lady, but these small actions, if we all do them, as you've said, Chanel, they make, they can have massive effects, can't they, globally and nationally. Yes, definitely. I don't, and I don't know if you've seen, literally just last week, Asda do, refill aisles in some of their, their stores, which is quite, quite unusual for a big supermarket.

They tend to be, as you said, like a, a, a sole trader or a bit of a niche niche market, and they've actually started to do refill, your pet food as well, so you can actually go in. Take your own bag and refill dry food up, which is such a good way to try and cut down on those massive bulky bags, which I know pet food manufacturers are making a huge effort with, but they are still quite hard to recycle, as in they, they require a bit of effort on the pet owner to make sure they're taking them to the right place. So, so that all, all of these things, it, it will just start to become the norm, hopefully.

I, I, we've been chatting and, you know, I'm, I'm conscious that I can gab, but I'm most interested and obviously as you said, we've been using your service as well, Eco offsets, any business uses carbon, and it's, it can be almost impossible to, to not emit carbon when you run a business, but it's been great to see. Big business as well suddenly changing their, their tone of saying we're not just there for profit, we're not just there for the shareholders, there has to be an environmental component because, Once the planet is destroyed, there is no second planet for us to all move to. Tell me a little bit about what you've been doing, you know, we've been obviously, I, I, we were talking about it before, as we grow a member, you know, as somebody joins as a member of Webinar that we actually come to you and, and plant some trees.

But as you said, the tree is great for social reasons, but it doesn't really absorb a lot of carbon in the 1st 10 years, does it? Yeah, absolutely. So, There's a lot of chat around tree planting and and how good the trees are for the environment, which is absolutely true.

They absorb CO2. They provide habitat for a huge range of species, and they actually improve the soil health as well, which also sequesters carbon. So trees are vital to actually remove carbon from the atmosphere.

But when somebody says to you, I've planted 10 trees and I've offset my carbon footprint, you know, you're well within your rights to think, well, yes, you have, but in 20 years, not today. So there are, there are sort of two aspects to your tree planting. If you're planting.

Seedlings or very young trees, that's going to be great in the future for carbon storage and soil health, but for now they're not really going to have a huge impact on emissions. So unless you're contributing to mature tree planting. It's, it's more of a mechanism for us anyway here at Eco so we really promote tree planting to put back into a social aspect.

So the partner that we used to plant our trees is called Eden Reforestation Projects, and they work in some of the most impoverished areas in the world where people literally have Nothing they can't provide for their families. There's very little education and healthcare. So the, the income that they get from planting these tiny saplings, but on a huge, huge scale enables them to earn a living wage.

They help them to build schools and hospitals so that they actually have access to bring themselves out. Poverty whilst putting back into the environment and improving biodiversity and in 1020 years, removing carbon as well. But what they do also in the short term, Chantelle is help reduce that kind of creeping desertification that's happening in places like Ethiopia.

So, you know, as you say, there's benefits in the short term, but, but almost, and I know you do this, it's also protecting those very mature environments as well, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah, so you, I mean, you, you, we need trees and we need to plant more of them because we, we use a lot of them whether it's in our building or burning for energy. So what we try and do is we're looking at a, for example, if somebody wants to become carbon neutral and offset their carbon footprint as a business or individual, we look at programmes that we called afforestation, and what that means is you're protecting an area of forest.

So it's a mature forest. It could be the Amazon rainforest, it could be mangroves, and what you're doing is your money that you're contributing to that project means. That the landowner doesn't have to sell it for logging.

They can continue to protect the forest. They usually again use local people to do that, which gives the benefit around the United Nations sustainable development goals too. So in that way, you've got mature trees that would be logged, that would release all that carbon and in turn would degrade the soil too.

And that I think as you said about the the desertification, it also means that Protecting against flood risks, against fires, so trees have got such huge amounts of benefits, but they need to be the right sort of offset at the right time to actually put a carbon offsetting claim onto it. Mm. I'm planting the right trees because clearly just planting a, a huge number of, of coniferous trees, you know, on, on, you know, upland.

In Scotland is not necessarily the right tree to plant in that area, is it? Oh yeah, they need to be native as well and exactly as you said, that helps support the wildlife that live there as well, because you can plant lots of trees, but actually it might not suit the birds that nest there, and it might not be the best for the health of the soil that that particular tree is, is, is used to. So it can be a bit of a minefield, and there are a few.

Outfits out there that say, you know, oh you you plant trees, you offset carbon footprint. Well, not necessarily, and give me the confidence, you know, that that you've planted the right tree in the right place and it is going to still be there in 20 years to actually remove some of that carbon. So that's what we try and do, try and guide our clients that, you know, if, if, if we're offsetting 10 tonnes by protecting the Amazon rainforest, we've got the accreditation to show for it and all the certificates, and it will be audited in 1020 years to show it's still there.

So, there's plenty of, of good quality offsetting schemes out there. If you need a bit of help with which ones to support, that, that's where we can help you as well. Chantelle, I, I mean, we've been really pleased to work with you and obviously we are offsetting our own carbon and and having, first of all is to calculate, of course, which I know we're, we're in the process of doing at the moment.

Clearly we're, as a company, you know, we've taken a lot of miles off the road with people doing training because. You probably remember 11 years ago when we were chatting, you know, when I started this business, nobody knew what a webinar was and there was no online space and, and obviously the online spaces is massive to I think help with the environment as well. But, and we don't tend to do this on, on the podcasts, but I think it's such an important area and, and you know, I know we've chatted about this beforehand.

You've obviously offered 4 veterinary practises that are listening now, or even businesses. I know you're working with some bigger businesses as well. I don't know if you're allowed to say names and things, so I won't say them in case I put my foot in it, which I'm known to do on occasion.

But I know you, you kindly said you'd, you'd do a, a sort of offer for us to encourage practicers to come to you and obviously also businesses. To have a free consult as to how you might be able to help them, and if they decided to work with you, there's a little discount that you can offer. Obviously we don't want to do too much discounting because we want to put that money into, into the projects, but perhaps you can talk a little bit about that to finish.

I, I mean, I've really enjoyed the talk today. There's been loads of really useful tips, and as you said, just those little small things that we do. Collectively can make a massive difference, can't they?

Yes, yeah. And, and that's, and that's the thing, so don't be overwhelmed. Don't think you've got to go for the big ticket items and if you've not got an electric car and solar panels that you failed, it's, it's actually the smaller things.

Just, just get started with it. The the most dangerous thing we can do is have this, this sort of climate inertia where you think, oh, I can't do any of it. It's too big.

I'm not going to bother. Get started, do the small things, even, you know, stop using coffee cups, take a reusable cup. The amount of coffee cups that go to landfill is just criminal.

So it's small things like that, just, just start. That's, that's the main thing. And if you do need some help with it, what we do is we can help you to offset your carbon footprint or your carbon footprint if you've got a very naughty dog like mine, which is crying at the side of me now.

So if you go to our website, there are different plans on there. You can offset monthly and you can pick what you think your carbon footprint is. So if you've got a vegan diet and you don't have a car, your footprint is going to be much less than somebody who has to drive and eats quite a lot of meat and dairy, so you can pick which one suits your lifestyle.

And for the business, if you want to look at how you can offset and reduce your environmental impact, the way that we work is we, we offer a, carbon footprinting project of which there is a fee for that, and we we then help for you to look at how you can offset that in projects. That are important to you and fit with your values. So it may be protecting trees, it may be looking at investing in wind or solar power.

It depends what's important to you and your team because it does need to be something that you all get on board with and really sort of add it in as, as you said, I'm saying, you're a purpose-led business, what's important to you and to your customers, because that's what you want to talk about and tell people about. So for anybody that wants to do that, if you get in touch with us of the links that I think Charlie's gonna share at the end, we can make sure that we can give you a discount on our products and for any consultations as well, we'll be happy to do that if you're a webinar that customer. Chanel, that's fantastic.

I've obviously taken too much of your time. The dog is complaining, he obviously, he or she needs some attention. It sounds more like a boy than a girl, but I could be getting this completely wrong.

She's a girl, but she's a very big, naughty Labrador, so I must apologise for that last bit there. That, that's quite all right. I think it's almost during these lockdown times de rigueur to have a a cat walking across your keyboard or a dog.

Causing noise in the background, to, to make it a proper webinar. I've been, befriended by a stray cat. I don't cuddle it in my lap because I probably would never play the guitar again, but it sounds like, your little one needs a bit of attention.

Thank you so much. I think it's fantastic work you're doing, please keep it up and . Those of you who are listening on, if, if you're not doing anything, have a chat.

I mean, it might even be at this stage, it's not the right thing for you to carbon offset, but actually, Chantelle can give you two or three tips that immediately make quite a big difference, and it's something that you look back on in 6 to 12 months to come back to it, . But it is, you know, we are in the middle of a climate emergency and I think the more of us as vets and nurses and practises and businesses involved in the profession actually, you know, step up to the plate and do something. It's I think it's really important, but again, Chantel, thank you so much, that's been absolutely brilliant and it's always great to chat to you, so thanks again for giving us some of your precious time.

Yeah, thank you and thank you for having me. Thanks, Chantel, bye bye.