Hi everybody and welcome to today's episode of Vet Chat, and I am delighted to be joined by one of my mentors from university, someone who I have skinned on the football pitch on several occasions and who has in return skinned me. Unfortunately, as a diehard Liverpool fan, he's been made to wait even longer in the current circumstances for what seems the almost inevitability of lifting the league title. But today I'm joined by by John Innes, who's the chief veterinary.

Officer for the CVS Group. John, thanks so much for joining me. Obviously, it would be great to be chatting in slightly more positive circumstances, but of course the, the, the impact of COVID-19 on the profession has, has brought us forward to this conversation.

I just wondered if you could just take a minute to just sort of introduce yourself to people and sort of, you know, how you've ended up where you are in this position now. Thanks, Ben, and it must have been difficult for, For an Everton fan to talk about Liverpool winning the Premiership, so thanks for that. So yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm now chief veterinary officer for CBS, position I've only been in since, January.

So timing's never been my strong point, I suppose. I, you know, I'm, I'm an ex-academic, I'm an orthopaedic specialist, and, and I previously led the referrals, still do lead the referrals division within CBS. But as chief veterinary officer sitting on the executive, of course, at the moment, there are, you know, huge challenges for our whole, industry, our whole sector.

You know, my, my thoughts are immediately with anyone that's been affected by this COVID-19, crisis directly in terms of health or their family or anything like that. I guess many of us now are starting to know people that have been affected and. And also thoughts with the, you know, the people in the in the NHS who are working incredibly hard and you know, under difficult circumstances to keep everyone healthy and get, get, get us through this crisis.

So yeah, I mean it's . It's been a real challenge, of course, and anyone in our sector at the moment will be facing challenges, and they're all slightly different, whether you're, you know, having to work in practise or homeworking, there are very different challenges around. We all need each other, I suppose, is, is the summary for that my opening statement, and we all need to support each other.

The vet profession is great at doing that, and I've seen a lot of that in the last couple of weeks. And I think that's, that's something that. I find actually really encouraging at the minute, in, in, you know, sort of very, very dark times potentially for, for many years now there's almost been this sort of them and us mentality with with independence and corporate practise as it, as it's sort of taken a foothold in the profession.

But, but of course what you've seen in in recent weeks is, you know, independents and corporates in the same areas really looking to how they can work together and and and. Galvanise a working relationship such that that, you know, everyone can survive in that. Is that something that, you know, as a group you're very, very passionate about, about supporting is that sort of collaboration between between.

Yeah, I think you're right at a time of crisis, it's good to see that. We, you know, as CVS are members of the major employers group, which includes the charities like the RSPCA, Blue Cross, PDSA. Any, any, veterinary employer that employs lots of vets at multiple sites.

And it's been great to see, you know, the collaboration in, in that group. So, you know, we, you know, the large corporates are competitors, of course, but, in, in this time, we have really come together to work together, work with DVA, work with the Royal College, happy to collaborate with independence, of course, and, you know, really trying to do the right thing because, . We need to make the right decisions, for human health, and as well as for our colleagues and our clients and the animals we look after.

So it's balancing all of those priorities, to protect our staff, to protect clients, and, you know, as Daniel, Daniela dos Santos, who I think has been amazing, with her leadership in the last couple of weeks, said we've got to be part of the solution. Not the problem, and, the, these are real challenges for us to, to weave our way through that, and every day brings a new challenge, yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, that it, it, these are very much, you know, you sort of almost take leadership for granted, when, when times are good and and inverted commas easy for practises, but when time.

Get hard as they have recently. What what added pressures as as a leader within an organisation, what added pressures do they put on, on you as an individual and a representative of that organisation? Well, yeah, I, I guess the gravity of the decisions, the gravity of the situation is the is the real pressure and also the fact that we're.

We're having to work in isolation, so of course the technology really helps. We can come together with video conferencing or teleconferencing, but it's, it's not quite the same, is it, as being in, in a room together, you, you lose the the body language, etc. And people have to be brave to, to challenge, and you know that that's certainly part of my job.

You know, my job is to look after. The clinical side of the business and you know, other, other people in the organisation have other roles, and they're obviously trying to do their job, but we have to challenge each other, and sometimes that, that requires a bit of bravery to do that and I'm sure no matter where you work, that's the, that's the same, isn't it? You know, if you're in a practise, you, you might have to challenge each other about the decisions you're making.

Minute to minute at the moment, you know, which, which cases do we see now, which, which cases, do we say that yeah that client should probably bring their animal to the clinic and, you know, the policy we've had is no clients in our buildings, because we want to protect them and we want to protect our staff. But it, it's challenging to, you know, each day is a whole list of new challenges and I, you know, I keep saying this, but the decision you make today may be reversed tomorrow because, the, the situation is so fluid, so. Yeah, lot, lots of challenges for everyone in this, and I don't, I don't think, you know, whether you're in a, on the exec of some big company or whether you're in a, in a practise, they're exactly the same challenges, just slightly different.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, that's, it's interesting that you touch on, you know, you're very much in charge of looking after the, the clinical side of the. Business, and of course that that clinical side, the delivery of the work hasn't necessarily changed, but, but actually the work that we have presented to us has changed almost overnight with with footfalls dropping through the floor in many practises and that sort of really gives us that, that opportunity, I think, as a, as a profession to educate owners as to, you know, what a genuine emergency is, within the pet care sort of profession, and of course, you know, those of us that have the burden of knowledge and, and know, you know, you know, GDV is a genuine emergency, whereas a flea infestation whilst a major inconvenience in the short term, isn't necessarily a life and death thing unless of course, you know, you're.

An 8 week old puppy with with hundreds of fleas in in the rare cases that we see like that. But how have your, how, how have the team taken to that sort of overnight change in, in the work circumstances? Have you guys put any steps in to support them on, on the sort of ground level as it were?

Yeah, I mean we, we, I can't speak for them all obviously. And, you know, I hope they're all doing fine with the, I mean, I'm sure there's issues for everyone and, and challenges for everyone. And, you know, we encourage people to, to contact us with those challenges.

So I think that's the important thing is to, to speak to your colleagues and speak to, other people in your organisation, speak to your peers to try and get help about decisions. But, yeah, they, you dramatic change, but I think we've also got to realise that. You know, the whole country and, and most of the world are in a state of shock, you know, over this, there's a lockdown, people's behaviours have suddenly changed, and of course the Royal College and the BVA have been really helpful with guidance for the profession, and that, that was very valuable.

But as time goes on, of course, the, the, the influence of time is an important factor here because what we decide is not urgent now, might become urgent next week and might emergent be the week after. Not, not everything, of course, but, but we have to sort of keep an eye on the clock as it were, in terms of what sensible decisions, and I think the Royal College have already alluded to that in terms of. You know, the guidance may change after the 1st 3 weeks of this, of this lockdown because of those sorts of issues.

And I've, I, I've seen, you know, heard some great innovative ways of working, you know, dermatology is an example where one of our specialists has created sample packs, and she's sending those out to clients, and then doing a video demonstration of how to collect a, you know, a hair sample or whatever, sending them in and she's doing the diagnostics remotely, and it's working really well. So there, there's ways of working that, that none of us had thought of before, but through necessity, we're now, we're now, you know. Looking at those and, and finding out how they work and how to make them better, yeah.

Yeah, and I think that that really highlights the sort of innovative nature of many of the people within the profession in that, you know, people do look and think outside of the box. And I think, you know, as, as you rightly allude to in, in times of great pressure, and of course something like this is, whilst people have been through recessions and things in the past, no none of us, certainly that I'm aware. I have been through anything of this extremity before, but you know, maybe the things and the steps that are made today that we learn about how to incorporate into practise in a time of great stress can be a real asset to practise as we move forwards and get back towards whatever the new normal is potentially.

No, I agree. I, I think that, you know, we, we are incredibly lucky in our profession, our professions, you know, that people come into. The veterinary profession or into nursing for absolutely the right reasons, you know, because they do it because they, they love the idea of working in that environment.

And so, you know, because people are so dedicated, you know, they're all, they're coming up with all sorts of ideas as to what we can do to help the animals that we care for and the clients that, that own them. And that, that's, that's amazing. And that, you know, that, that's what we should be doing for each other is, is, is helping each other in that way.

So, you know, people in what we, we call senior management or leadership within companies, yeah, they're in those positions, but the best ideas always come from, from the staff actually doing the job at the coalface, because, you know, they're getting the the problems right in front of them and coming up with. Solutions. Yeah, yeah, and that's it, you know, it's very much being a, a solutions driven sort of population of people and that, you know, we, we tend to obviously, it's all good and well having a whinge about the the problems, but invariably, you know, vets and nurses and, and even, you know, veterinary reception teams come up with solutions to whatever that pressure point is in the practise.

Now of course John, CVS is is a listed. Company. So some of the pressures on, on the business overall are potentially very different to, you know, an independent practise operating where there's just one site.

And how does the impact on the markets impact you as a business? Because of course that's something that many of us in the profession can't really even. Oh well, I'm not going to be pretending to be the finance director.

You know, that's certainly not my skill set or, or my job. Probably good, good, good job, it isn't, . Yeah, I mean, I, I think that the main issue for, you know, any business, any business at the moment, of course, is going to be that people aren't coming into practises, then revenue drops, and then it's about, it's about cash flow, isn't it?

So I, you know, I, I, I, I don't think the underlying structure of the business in the, in the medium to longer term is, is any sort of issue really. We will all come through this, and we'll, you know, we'll all come out the other side and things will get back to normal. Pretty quick, I think, in the, in the veterinary industry.

That's one of the advantages we have is that clients will prioritise their animals over other, other spends. So, you know, we, we have that advantage, I suppose. We just have to get through this, and, you know, as a, as any business, and it must be particularly tough for smaller businesses at the moment, because they don't necessarily have the ability to.

You know, flex as much as a large organisation might do. But yeah, I, I think it's all about managing through this period, and that's about, you know, managing costs during the period when, we've been forced to, to lose revenue because of the lockdown and . We're, we're not alone there, of course, are we, in our, in our, in the veterinary sector.

There are many areas of society that are suffering even more than us at the moment. Yeah. And obviously one of the things that you touch on there is this sort of revenue generators and that almost overnight switch seems to have been turned on sort of teleconsulting and and telehealth across the profession in terms of, you know, how do we keep some, some revenue coming in whilst looking after our clients.

And is is that something that, you know, as an organisation, you. Is is a big asset to a practise or or potentially a hindrance or what what you're sort of feeling. Yeah, well, I suppose, you know, we as an organisation, and I know others are different, but we hadn't really decided to make the switch to telemedicine, but you know, of course the current situation has meant that we've had to make provision for that across business very quickly.

And so we are, you know, we're using, we're primarily using the good old telephone because it works and people are familiar with it. And there are other options, we can do video consults, but you know, we, we, we put structures in place and our, you know, our vet teams have been, you know, absolutely amazing in terms of adapting. To that and we've got people working away on, you know, identifying the Q and A's that come up around telephone consults and how we decide best practise on the telephone.

You know, we've obviously got the relaxation in remote prescribing and which is, is obviously helpful for clients and their animals, but we've got to make sure, we've still got to keep our eye on. You know, quality improvement and clinical governance and all those issues that makes the profession, you know, outstanding what it is. So, we've got to do this carefully and properly and appropriately and maintain clinical standards, and look after human health at the same time.

So it's, yeah, there's loads of challenges, but I, you know, I'm just amazed that, you know, the, the, my colleagues and all the ideas they've had around that and their willingness to. To er stay in the front line as well in clinics and, and see animals but see them as safely as we can. So yeah, we, we, you know, we're, we've had to quickly embrace it all and you know, I think everyone is, is doing that.

And you know, then lots of vets are acting as support for other vets. So, you know, a lot of our specialists now we're, we're offering advice to all of our vets who might be in situations they're not, they're not used to suddenly. Yeah, and I think that's been the sort.

You know, it really has been an encouragement to me from the outside looking in on on so many of those relationships where people are so happy to go, I dare say, even higher and further than they would have done previously in, in, you know, professional relationships to ensure that they're supporting each other, and I think, you know, that is absolute test. And no, that's of course not exclusive to us as a profession, but it, I think it gives you that extra level of pride to be a member of this profession and sort of see the the way that we're getting behind each other irrespective of who we're working for. I, I think that is, you know, a real, real positive to come out of this.

I think, you know, John, it's been great chatting. I think one of the big things that I wanted to give you the opportunity to, to say at the end of our interview is sort of, you know, if, if there's anything that you wanted specifically to say to veterinary teams, both CBS and across, you know, the, the whole UK and global, . Audience as to, you know, if you, if you've got a message for anybody that you want them to hear well yeah, I'm, I've known Martin Luther King, Ben.

I mean, I, I know that, you know what my limitations are, but you know I, I, I think it's really important, you know, that veterinary professions are amazing. It's really important that. We support each other and, you know, through this, the, the UK government and have been very supportive really with the, the furlough scheme, and there will be people furloughed in, in the, the veterinary sector, and that's being done to protect their jobs, you know, it really is because You know, with the drop in in clients coming through the door, you know, you've got to make a business sustainable and get through this and we'll come out the other side and then we can all pick up again and get back to normality, but.

People that are being furloughed, some of them might be relieved because they, they're not at so much risk anymore. Others might be very disappointed, but I, I guess what I would say and encourage them to stay in touch with their colleagues, find ways to do that. We'll, we'll get through all of this and come out the other side, and we'll be better, we'll be better for it.

It's a bit of a cliche, but we will because bridges will have been built that weren't there before. And an understanding that we're, you know, we're all in this great profession together, and that those relationships are actually the most important thing. You know, I think we're very, we are a very close knit profession because probably because we're relatively small, and probably because people come into it for the, for the right reasons because, you know, they love the idea of working in that environment, and it's not, it's not about money, let's say, and those sorts of things.

So. We're very fortunate in that sense, and so, you know, I'll sort of end where I started probably by saying, you know, if anyone's been directly affected so far by, this, horrible, disease outbreak, our thoughts are with you and with your families. But, you know, the rest, rest of us that are working away, it, it comes with being a vet that you've got to provide emergency and, and urgent care at this time and, you know, again, well done to everyone who's.

Who's in the clinic seeing clients and helping them when they need our help, and thanks to NHS workers I've got, I know Ben you you've got lots of medics in your family and I've got lots of friends. Close friends who are medics working away here in Merseyside and they're doing a fantastic job and they're doing a great job across the country, so thank you to them. Yeah, well, I, I know you say you know Martin Luther King, but I think bridges will be built and we are all in this great profession together is a fairly brilliant statement to have to wind and to surmise that that whole sort of ethos and and and attitude towards this.

So, John, thank you very much for joining me. Thanks for chatting and being so. Open about about the situation with yourselves and you know for the teams across CVS and the wider profession, and I think, you know, as as you alluded to earlier, even as hard as this is for me as an Everton fan, I think along with everybody else, I, I, I would happily bow to this being over sooner and going through the great pains of watching Liverpool lift the the Premiership title at some point in the City.

Yes, I shall have the cold beers ready. Well, thanks very much, John, and yeah, you're welcome. Nice to speak to you, Ben.