Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. Today I'm so excited to welcome Alison Johansson as our guest. And before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about it.
So Alison is a dedicated licenced mental health provider based just outside of Denver in Greenwood Village. She offered. Works with healthcare professionals, including veterinarians, to manage workplace exhaustion and stress by using the polyvagal theory.
She has practised in this field for just over 15 years and continues to grow and develop using continuous education. On an ongoing basis, she has a certification in EMDR using these techniques to harness change through extended and intensive therapy sessions, empowering people to get to a place where they feel comfortable with natural emotions. So welcome Alison to vet chat, it's wonderful to have you here today.
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So today we're gonna be talking about, mental health challenges in the veterinary, profession.
Before we get started, do you mind if you could just touch upon what the polyvagal theory is for anybody who's listening who might not be aware, please. Absolutely. So the polyagal theory is the idea that our nervous system, the part of our brain, That responds to safety and fear, it actually has three different parts.
The first part is our dorsal vagal and it's the oldest reptilian part that in simplest terms is geared towards freeze or faint responses. What it looks like in humans is often looks like depression. And slowing down, difficulty concentrating, the digestive system slows a decent amount, and then the next one up.
Is the sympathetic nervous system, and it is more geared towards the fight or flight in simple terms. It can look like anxiety, it can look like I just want to get out of here. It can look like burnout, some burnout can be in either place actually.
And then the ventralagal, which is more of the pack animal connectedness, we wanna be around each other, we wanna connect to each other, we connect to ourselves. It's the safest place. And when we can't find safety, we get stuck a lot in either the dorsal or the sympathetic.
OK. Brilliant. OK, so you've done loads of research into this area and through studying that you found these techniques that can help people.
Is that right? Yes, yes, and I've really found that more than just what we think of as safety or fear, if a bear walks in the room, I know I'm not safe. I have to do something.
It actually really plays into vicarious trauma. It plays into burnout. It plays into all of these things that feel so big, and it simplifies it into, I'm just trying to stay safe.
And so it can make it a lot easier to manage because it's not as big. It makes sense. My body is doing what it's designed to do.
Yeah, of course, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Thank you. So what looking at kind of the veterinary profession, what are some of these big things, these sort of stresses and challenges, you know, what things can veterinarians face?
The obvious ones, you're having to deal with euthanasia, you're also have to deal with difficult people. Your clientele are, they're not speaking human, so someone has to bring them in, and many people went into the field, not for the humans, quite frankly, even though you have to talk to them, which creates another stressor. And then a lot of the work is really high pressure.
If you're walking around with your hair on fire, there's not a place to find that safety. And so all three of those mixed together, these high stress, these high emotion events create at a tender box for difficult emotional regulation. Mhm.
Yeah, absolutely. Do you think, is there any, any sort of advice that you'd, that you'd give people with how best to manage, manage it if they are getting into that state? Absolutely.
I think there's a lot of different things that you don't, you probably hear about self-care, where you go for a walk or you take a bath and that's great, but I know when I get busy, I don't always do those things, and it sounds great, but I just don't do them. And so instead finding little micro moments, even if it's every time I walk through a doorway, I exhale. Exhaling tells your nervous system that you're safe cause you're typically not exhaling as much when you're not safe.
And so a forced sigh. It can be really beneficial. Making sure that you have rituals when you come into the office that is I'm coming to work, I'm about to be Moving fast and then I'm leaving work and having something that you do to make sure that you start and end your day can be super helpful.
Otherwise, you go home with your hair on fire or you go home and just crash and do all of these things that maybe work temporarily or not at all. And so you finding little moments, I tell people if you don't know if you're in a safety spot, if you can tell, feel your fingerprints. And just feel the ridges and what they feel like.
That's a really great, it kills two birds with one stone. It brings in your thinking part of your brain, which tells your body that you're safe cause you're curious about it. And then you can also test and say, am I even here or am I floating around without anything, just trying to stay safe.
So those are just some quick things, and you can come up with some other quick things. Maybe you, when you wash your hands, you feel what the water feels like. Every time you go to the bathroom, you take a breath.
The things that you're already doing throughout the day, so it doesn't have to be big. Yeah, absolutely, that's really good advice. Just little things that really make you stop and think that, you know, this is it, slowing down now.
Yeah, or even like I said, just an exhale. You don't have to think about an exhale. Your body, oh, I must be alive.
Good news. So you've obviously been working with veterinary professionals, for quite some time now. I'm just really interested to know, are there any sort of personality traits or any similarities that you've become aware of, over your experiences, that make veterinarians prone to, you know, maybe anxiety or depression, anything like that?
You know, it's funny you say that. I was just reading an article that used the word neurotic, and I'm like, that's mean. I don't want to call people neurotic, but really.
There's a, there's a perfectionism, and I don't know if it comes from school or if you to get through school, you have to be a little bit of a perfectionist, but that perfectionism can create a lot of stress because nothing's perfect. And so there's this extra level of pressure that comes from, I have to do everything exactly the way. That it needs to be and it has to turn out the way that I want it to, that creates an extra layer of stress, so I prefer perfectionism.
I've actually read several papers that say neurotic and people sort of laugh at that, but . You know, that's me. We'll just say perfectionism.
Are there any, tips that you have around the sort of stigma that can surround mental health, . Is there anything Any kind of just I don't know tips that you might have around discussions or signposts, you know, for people who might be struggling and you know, might need some support right now. I think that there's two questions in that.
The stigma, I think, comes from the top. The schools have to talk about it before it ever becomes when people are students, the agencies need to talk about it and not just talking about it in a superficial, hey, look, we're talking about mental health way, but really saying, how are you doing? And I care about that, and let's talk about ways that you can manage this from a top down level.
And then as people are doing that, being able to say, when people's brains start to move slower, so they make a little bit more mistakes. It might not just be because they're making a lot of mistakes, it might be because their brain can't think because it's trying to stay safe. Mhm.
And so those are red flags, or if someone feels mopey or negative, that's they start getting agitated or irritable a little bit more. Those are really big signs that if you're one of these top professionals, you can stop someone and say, is this hard right now? Not saying just what's going on because people don't want to talk about it cause it's still stigmatised.
Yeah, but saying, is it hard? Yeah, do you think there's enough support for people like practise managers and people in practise to to know to ask these sorts of questions? Yes, I, I, I think any kind of training or any kind of information around it because when you're starting to break a stigma.
There's There's some fine nuances around not being just superficial around it, you know, we create therapy, go to see a therapist, moving on, or go for a walk and you'll be fine, but really stopping and saying, gosh, things are hard, this is a hard profession, let's call it what it is. And I think you should be proud that you do what you do because it is hard. And being able to take care of yourself is important.
Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. OK, lovely then that's great advice.
Thank you, Alison. . What about kind of, are there any sort of systemic factors in the veterinary industry that you think might worsen mental health challenges for vets, if you come across anything there.
I think it's changing some, but school is definitely sort of suck it up, pull it up by your bootstraps, and don't talk about how it's hard, except for to each other. Which creates kind of this culture within itself when people get into the field of I have to suck it up and this is just the way it is. I signed up to be a veterinarian, so this is what I do, or, and that kind of systemic piece.
I think it's not. Other than the fast pace, which I don't know how to stop that cause it's just sort of what it is, I think that's the biggest systemic piece. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
OK, wonderful, ah no, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. Have you noticed a change, you know, obviously you've been working for veterinarians for a while now.
Have you noticed a change over like recent years . With the profession as a whole. Absolutely.
I think people are using, I mean, suicide rates got really, really high in your field, and I think that's something that hit home to a lot of people. It, it can't not. And so people started opening their eyes and saying, oh, maybe there's something we're doing wrong.
Large research papers started coming out saying this profession has higher mental health rates than any others, and I think people were forced to look at it. So even in just the last year or two, I noticed this huge push towards what do we do? Yeah.
Unfortunately, it had to get really yucky before that. Yeah, absolutely. That's really positive though that you have noticed that, you know, in recent years.
Absolutely, it takes a long time for change. Yeah, but at least it's starting. Yeah, definitely.
If any of our any of our listeners are listening and now thinking, you know, I'd love to go back into practise, I'd love to make a difference. Have you got any tips where they could kind of start with this? Starting with the mental health piece, go back into practise, you make a plan that involves your values.
One of the biggest problems with burnout is that an agency stops fitting someone's values. And so really sitting down and saying, what are my values? What are the things that are most important to me, and then saying, are they, is this really what's important to me, or is this something someone told me should be important to me?
And really looking at, you know, you're allowed to say money is one of your values, you're allowed to say power is one of your values. Those are sort of taboo subjects, but really sitting down and saying what is most, what are the top three things in my life, not just my profession. They give me energy that make me feel whole and then deciding how can I fit that into my career so that when I start back I'm starting back with something that's filling me up knowing.
It's not gonna fill you up 100%. There's always gonna be the junk, the stuff that no one likes, the paperwork, you know, all that stuff, but at least the big picture is I'm going in with my values in mind so that you have something that's less. Oh my gosh, this is not safe and more, while this fills me up.
Yeah, it makes me grow. Sounds great, thank you. Is with the you know you spoke right at the start about the theory and understanding yourself more and how you respond to certain situations.
If people wanted to understand that a little bit more, is there any resources that you'd recommend? Deb Dana, I think is the most digestible to read. So it's D E B D A N A.
She has several books out there. Stephen Porges is the theory, the person who founded the theory. He, you can read about him.
He's pretty dry. If you're someone who likes dry reading, he's the one to go to, but Deb Dana's is more. It, it, I'm easier to read fluid pertains.
So less of the like fancy words, but still has the fancy words in it. OK, brilliant. And maybe what we could do is we could get links to them and we can put them on our blog with this podcast and then that might be more easily signpost people to the to the resources to to learn more.
Absolutely, that would be an easy way to do it. Yeah. Brilliant.
And is Is there any way people can contact you, you know, if they might have some questions that they want to ask you or if maybe they wanna you know, have a conversation? Would that be possible as well? Yes, I think most of your listeners are in the UK or around that area, so email would probably be best, so I can link my email as well if you'd like.
And then my website, and I'll put, I'll send all of that to the book, my email, the website, so that people can contact me. I really A lot of times people say this, but I really genuinely do not mind if people just have a question to email me and ask. I can't go into depth without, you know, going into actual sessions, but I could really give some basic information that can be helpful and and passionate about giving the information.
So please, please contact me. Oh, thanks Alison, thank you so much and LinkedIn as well. I saw that you're doing a lot on LinkedIn, so I guess if any of our listeners are on LinkedIn, that would be the perfect place to reach out as well.
So yep, exactly. So we can, I'll share all of those links. Oh, amazing.
Thank you so much. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you wanted to share with our listeners today? No, I think it's just the biggest thing for me is when we talk about mental health, there's always this like, what are, what's going wrong?
And I really just wanna commend each and every person listening for being in the veterinary profession. It's not, it's a hard profession to be in, and while there's mental health concerns, you know, giving yourself credit as well for the hard. And the impact that you do make, cause that's hard to see when You're in the place where it feels like you're not making a lot of impact.
Great, thanks Alison, thank you so much. Thank you for being here today, for joining us and for sharing your insights as well. It's been great.
Thank you so much for having me. Oh, thanks very much. Thanks everybody.
Bye.
