Hi everybody and welcome to the first episode of Vet Chat in 2021, and I wish I was bringing it to you in er more jolly circumstances. But I'll ask, you know, these are the times that we find ourselves in, and I think, you know, you only have to look at the, the turbulent starts of the year to know that we're not out of the woods yet. But it's great to see that, you know, progress has been made, you know, I'm delighted to be able to say my wife has had her first vaccine as a frontline worker.

So, you know, there's, there's movements in the right direction, so. I am delighted today to be joined by, by someone who are classed as a friend, and it also happens to be the BVA president, er, James Russell, and obviously, as I'm sure many of you will imagine, James has had a rather busy start to the year. So James, obviously it's great that you've you've managed to find some time in, in your diary to chat with us.

Thank you so much for being here. Obviously one of the, the most turbulent weeks and, and most sort of blue weeks if you like, for the profession in, in, in quite a, a significant period of months. Obviously, you know, we were sort of hoping that we were going in the right direction and then this new variant is very much .

Put us on the back foot as it were, but I just wonder if you can convey to people, obviously there's bits of paperwork and stuff that don't really have faces and voices behind it, but what's been going on behind the scenes with, with BVA and with government, in terms of, you know, looking at the profession as a whole. Sure, and thank you, Ben, delighted to be here and delighted to be able to chat with you this morning and you're absolutely right, it's been a, a very fraught week and a large part of that is because, you know, we're very, very aware that any thoughts we're having, any decisions we make, any guidance we put out, have a real impact on people who are working in practise, and that, you know, there's a huge responsibility on us to try and, be mindful of everybody's role in that as, as we do that. We didn't get any kind of prior notice any more than any other sector did about what was going to be coming out from the Prime Minister on Monday evening.

And so straight away we jumped into quite a late evening with the Royal College to try and understand where we thought the profession should be. And it really from those very early moments, we all agreed. That we did not need to revisit where we were last March, you know, the reasons that we went to emergency only back in last March were because there was a period of time where we didn't know, it wasn't clear from government whether that practises were even going to be able to open at all.

And, It was in that context, and the context as well, of not understanding how this disease was spread in the way that perhaps we do now and how we can try and work to keep each other safe in the way that we do now, that, that those decisions were taken back in last March. And, and we're not in that situation now. So many people have made so many changes to the way they were.

In order to be able to keep themselves safe, their teams safe, their clients safe, and still be able to see and treat their patients. And I've said it before, but I'll say it again, Ben, you know, I am hugely proud to be a part of a profession which has undertaken those changes and fulfilled all its commitments to animal health and welfare right through this pandemic, as well. All of our commitments to maintaining the food chain and in keeping that moving, as well as all of our commitments to the work that our government colleagues are doing and our laboratory animal colleagues are doing in keeping their aspects of the veterinary profession moving.

Just an amazing achievement to know that that's all been going on. And that's it, there's so many, there's so many moving parts in this profession, and you know, it's, it is that full length and breadth of, you know, the food chain right through to, you know, Mrs. Jones's hamster.

And and there's that everything in between. And of course, you know, you, you, as an organisation have to make decisions and guide policy that affects and impacts everybody, but of course everybody in the profession has their own individual sets of circumstances, so you know, you're in that rather unenviable position of having to put out blanket guidelines, knowing full well that you can't please everybody, but how, you know, obviously, As a president and as a figurehead of an organisation, there's there's the essential steps that that you go through that, but from a personal perspective for you, how difficult has that been to know that, you know, you're doing your best, but it's not going to please everybody. Absolutely, and Ben, and that was really the, the sort of reasoning behind us trying to go down the route of underlining and reinforcing for everybody the moral and ethical imperative for us as citizens of, of the country, but also as professionals and respected members of all of our communities.

To, you know, to lead by example here really, and to show that we were doing something different in light of what the Prime Minister said to us. Not that what we were doing before was wrong, but that what was expected of everybody now was that there would be a step change in our commitment to. You know, reducing human contact as much as was possible, and I absolutely recognise the challenges that come alongside that.

The morning after the Prime Minister's announcement, you know, my wife went off to work in, in, in her small animal practise just around the corner here, and, you know, to hear her come back and talk about the particular challenges that clients are bringing to her, as well as the organisational challenges that are going on within the practise and within the group. Yeah, really brings it home to you, just how personal some of these things are. And I think the thing that we recognise, then is that everybody in every practise is in a different situation.

And whereas it might have been helpful for us last April to be very directional in things that we felt were appropriate and were not appropriate. What we recognise now is that, as I say, because of these new ways of working. Some practises are able to fulfil all of that commitment to reducing human contact and reducing the spread of COVID-19, while still, for example, allowing clients to come into their waiting rooms.

For other people, and I think back to when when my old practise was still working out of a, you know, an old townhouse in the centre of Ashbourne, you know, we couldn't have had anybody in that building and maintained any sense of social distancing, and there's those extremes of, of what people are able to achieve. So we felt it was much more appropriate to be able to say to people, look, you, you're gonna have to make some clinical judgments here and you're gonna have to make some risk-based judgments. But what I hope we've encouraged people to do is to empower their whole teams to be part of that decision making process.

So that, you know, this. Shouldn't be, you know, one person walks in and says, this is how we're doing it. If we can make sure that, just as we've alluded to in our good workplace guidance, where we talk about having whole team buy into workplace culture, this is a real, you know, a real point example of how that can work, isn't it?

I Get the whole team to buy into the idea of this is what we can do, this is what we can't do. And actually, let's look at this clinically as well and make a judgement on what are the important things for us clinically, what genuinely will impact on animal health and welfare if we don't do them for the duration of this lockdown. And that varies across the country.

For me, in our area, you know, it was a regular weekend on duty event to have a dog with leptospirosis as one of our inpatients. I chat to a colleague over in Lancashire, he tells me he's never seen it in 25 years in practise. So we may have a different view on whether leptospirosis vaccines, as a for example, you know, are important for animal health and welfare in this time period.

And I think that's OK. But we have to all, I think, recognise that we need to be able to stand behind and justify those clinical decisions that they are genuinely being done for animal health and welfare reasons. Yeah, and I think that's it, isn't it?

I mean, you know, veterinary teams are under such stress and such pressure, and I have to say, you know, you, you alluded to it earlier. I, I couldn't be prouder to be part of a profession that has dealt with the last 12 months, as, as, as we all have. And of course everyone has dealt with it differently, and I think what you, you know, what you, very clear in in those instructions is that there is an element of, of personal responsibility, and I think, you know, that's where, you know, you, you talk about the guidelines from, from the BBA and saying, look, you know.

Each practise is different, each premise is different, and I think actually, you know, the way I would would draw the comparison across the profession is saying, look, you know, we have these conversations with clients all of the time. Our job as vets is to inform and to educate, but ultimately that final decision about what is done. Lies with that, that pet parent, that pet owner, however, you know, your, your terminology applies to it nowadays, and that is exactly the same circumstances here and of course, you know, some people are single parents, some people have got elderly relatives who they rely on for childcare, you know, there is such a a breadth of personal circumstances across the profession.

And of course it's something that you yourself understand. You know, your, your wife's a clinical vet, you're BVA president, so already we've got two, people with so much time on their hands. And, and yet you're facing the prospect of homeschooling as well.

And so, how's that going? You know, we're very lucky we've got 3 girls here, superbly recognising of the, of the stresses and the pressures on both their mom and me. But, but of course it's tough.

And, Ben, just before I came on to to you here, I was talking about the culture of India versus the culture of South Africa for my 9 year old geography project. And I think the mental agility to jump between these different projects is, is gonna be something that we all take from, from these, from these lockdown times, isn't it? And certainly the only Everybody who's trying to work with caring responsibilities, whether that's for school-age children or for, for others with, with care needs.

You know, it, it's a, it's a tough time, and I think, you know, encouraging employers and employees to work together to find the best ways around that, in terms of flexible working, in terms of being imaginative with the way rotas work, and potentially with using some of the government schemes as well, the furlough schemes, or maybe some of the childcare bubbles and all the rest of it. You know, I think that's what we're, that's what we're asking people to do at this point, is to work together to understand the best ways for their whole team to be able to achieve that balance between understanding where they're going to talk about cricket in India and where they're gonna come and talk about this with you. Yeah, I think it's a, yeah, that, that natural Venn diagram of a normal day, isn't it, that's very quickly being tossed out the window in 2021.

And of course like you know it's. It's all a bit complicated, isn't it, when you've got countries that have got different rules, and obviously, you know, whilst there's no physical wall built between the likes of, you know, Wales and England, you've got the natural barrier of the, you know, the Irish Sea between between us and Ireland. But there's different sets of rules, and what complications does that throw in for you as an organisation and then then for us as a profession?

Yeah, so I think we're very lucky that that with the four chief veterinary officers that we've got at the moment. All 4 of them are very approachable and very understanding, I think, of the realities of both clinical practise but also non-clinical veterinary work as well, and very keen to engage with us and to support as much as they can developing. You know, solutions for the profession.

But of course, you know, they're bound by legislation, and you know, that's the limit of, of where they can go to. And that that presents challenges to them as much as it does to us. But certainly, you know, you're absolutely right, some of those border issues are the challenges.

I was speaking with a friend, an old college friend the other day whose practises down in in Ross. And you know, she was talking about trying to draw up a rota for surgeries which are in England, surgeries which are in Wales, staff who live in England, staff who live in Wales. And, you know, that is fiendish, and I don't think anybody underestimates really the, the difficulty that that throws out to people.

And I come back to where I was really, which is saying that I know that everyone's doing just the most that they can do to be part of the solution to this, you know, this worldwide pandemic. But I don't pretend that's easy. It's really tough.

We, we maintain those chains of communication and very, very pleased to have them. But, you know, there is a limit to how far our our chief veterinary officers can go. Yeah, yeah, and of course like one of the biggest things is that, you know, we, we can set as many guidelines as we like as practises we can set as many rules and, and support our team as best as possible.

But there's invariably a mismatch between. Our perception of a set of circumstances and a pet owner's perception of of a set of circumstances, and actually neither of those perceptions is wrong, is it? You know, that the, for for a pet owner who's worried about their pet, whatever that is for, that's an important stressful moment in their lives, for, for us as a vet, we may well at that and go, really?

Like, you know, I just do this and that and the other, and one of the joys is that, you know, last year, a lot of practises adopted, a slightly more flexible approach to how we, how we liaise with, with, with, with with clients. But have you seen that sort of change benefit the profession over the last 12 months or so? Yeah, sure, and I mean I think what you're alluding to is something that's an age old challenge to the profession, isn't it?

I mean, I can think of very many phone calls between me and pet owners of, well, how much blood is a lot of blood? You know, cut a nail quick it looks like you've been you know, at the Somme, doesn't it, but . So, you know, I think that, that, that difference in perception is there, and I think it's exacerbated at the moment, particularly with the sort of English and Scottish guidance at the moment, which says, you know, in a public facing document that a suitable reason to be out of your house in the current lockdown is to attend your vet for advice or treatment.

You know, that's quite at odds with what we're being asked to do as a profession to minimise contact and to, to really restrict our work to to that which is. Health and welfare crucial through the, through the period of the lockdown. So, so I can see where those conflicts are coming from, and, and completely understand them.

But I think what's been so amazing to see has been the adoption and the adaptation to things like tele triage, you know, and video triage of, of, of patients over time and. You know, whether that's been a perfect tool, whether it's something which remains with us after, you know, COVID is, is ancient history. You know, I, I think it's too early to judge, but what's certainly true is that we've seen, right across the profession, people embracing and adapting to those technologies to try and help them to make those judgments about how much blood is a lot of blood.

And I know, you know, I've had the conversations. I remember speaking to an equine vet who told me that he now has an innate knowledge of oak trees, because that's mostly what the videos of lame horses have shown him. And, you know, it is dependent on the clients getting that right, of course it is.

But if, if it can be used well, it's a huge support for us and it's just another step, isn't it, in trying to reduce the number of people needing to come in. And heavens, we're all a little bit better I think, at using this sort of online video tech than we were a year ago. And that's it, you know, I mean it it's a, it's it's a tough time we can't get away from that, but I think, you know, that there are learnings that we've taken as a profession, and I have to say, you know, one of the things that I think was, was very evident for a lot of practises actually last year was that even with reduced footfall, you know, there was an increase in, in revenues, in profits, and, and, you know, sort of the, the the viability of those individual businesses.

Which you know does go to show that we're in a. I, I, I, I'm reluctant to use the word fortunate because I don't think anybody who's working on the front line at the moment is, is fortunate, but we are in a privileged position as a profession that we can't, we can still generate revenue as businesses and we can still keep, you know, those businesses going and flowing. Obviously, you know, businesses consist of employees and employers, and we all have our own stressors and obviously one of the hard parts is, you've got two sets of people singing from different hymn sheets.

But obviously, what, what bits of advice, what bits of, you know, sort of, encouragement would you give to those teams on the basis of what you've seen from the last 12 months? You know, in terms of sticking together and, you know, we touched on culture earlier, but you know, what, what can teams do to, to, to get through it. So I think as I come into the, to answering that, Ben, I think, you know, I would agree with you in terms of the, you know, the RCVS data on financial viability or sustainability of practises through the second half of 2020.

And and absolutely that's encouraging to see and, you know, you're absolutely right to point to the fact that. You know, compared to our friends and colleagues who work in the entertainment industry, or, you know, publicans we might know, whatever, you know, we, we, we've had the opportunity to keep that income coming in. But I think we need to be very careful that we don't confuse that with the ways of working through 2020 being sustainable and, you know, manageable in the long term.

And certainly, you know, BVA's Voice of the Veterinary Profession survey, which we undertook towards the end of September and You know, it had a good response. We had about 25% of our voice of the profession survey. Members responded to that, so several 100 respondents.

And what that showed was that people's key concern was about both theirs and the veterinary profession as a whole's wellbeing and fears of stress and burnout as as we continue through this pandemic. And, you know, that's where I see, our role at the moment at BVA is to try and support people and to try to find those ways of working which are sustainable. And so if we were to come back to your question of what could we be doing at a practise level to try and promote that, it comes back to the discussion I was having earlier about, engaging the whole practise team.

But I think just recognising that, you know, it's a, it's a big lift. To get up and to get going again in what we are now locked down 3.0 in England and, you know, similarly around, around the different devolved nations of the United Kingdom.

That people haven't got the adrenaline rush and the depths of the reserves of resilience that perhaps we had last March, last April, to be able to manage those long working days out in the car park, in the sleet. You know, seeing clients, all the rest of it. And we've got to be respectful of that.

You know, it's very, very important for our members of our profession right now. But also, let's not, you know, shy away from the fact that it's important for animal health and welfare and the viability of the veterinary sector in the future. To make sure that everybody who's working in the profession at the moment feels that their needs and their requirement to have their, You know, a bit of time away from work and, and their working patterns really respected.

You know, that, that we consider each and every one of those, and make sure that they're still here, still wanting to be vets, or vet nurses, or receptionists or cleaners or amin assistants, whatever role it is they play in the practise, that they're still here wanting to do that in another year's time. Because otherwise we're really on a hiding to nothing. So I think that is about using all of the sort of imagination, all the flexibility that we can do to enable people to fulfil the commitment that we all feel to wanting to make sure we provide for our clients and provide for animal health and welfare, but at the same time, looking after ourselves.

And there are examples right across the country of that extending outside of individual practises and neighbouring practises, supporting each other through challenging times when, you know, perhaps one of them's lost a couple of bubbles due to isolation or whatever, and, and being able to pick up the pieces and and work collaboratively. To get through that, and they're really encouraging things to see and to hear, but I think it's probably something that we need to make sure is absolutely at the fore of our mind, now, perhaps even more so than we did, certainly back in last April, but even than we did during the summer when, right, people were trying to consult in the car park, but it was on 15 hour warm days rather than 6 hours of sleet as we get at the moment. Yeah, and that's it, and, and as you rightly allude to, you know, there are huge swathes of the profession that are, you know, pretty much on their knees at the minute, you know, people have been working flat out, for, for a long period of time, many of them without a break, you know, there's, there's all the new challenges, as you, as you say, that are faced in that sort of.

As you say, it's, it's much more of a challenge on a, a cold, dark winter's day. But there are these little glimmers of hope. You know, obviously we've got the vaccine.

We've got the collaboration across the profession, and that is, you know, this is something that, you know, we talk, you know, we've heard rumblings over the years about, you know, such and such has got to practise down the road. We, you know, we, we don't officially bad mouth them and so on and so forth. And there's always the little, you know, little snippets and that, but actually what we've seen is this, this coming together and supporting a profession.

But of course people are, you know, at breaking point. There's, there's obviously ways that people can. Have time off from work, but of course we're a profession of people that are givers.

And and One of the challenges is that, you know, people really do drive themselves into the ground. When we look at things like, you know, furlough schemes and stuff like that, and this, this desire for this mismatch really between between people's desire not to let the team down. Where, where does that, where does that put us as a profession?

You know, what, what are, what, what can people, how do they strike that balance on a personal level between looking after themselves and not letting down the team? Yeah, and it's a really tough one, Ben, and, you know, anyone who's been, been close to me over the past few years will know that it's not what I've always got right. I find it very hard to, you know, to take time away from the practise.

And, you know, very often, even just to tell my farm clients that I was thinking of taking a break, you know, I mean, there, there's a group of people who Who aren't very good at at, at looking after their own well-being and taking time away from their workplace, as a, as a collective. But if, so if I can move away from what I've done and talk to what I say, you know, I think, I think the questions you've got to ask yourself are how effective can you continue to be at work? And actually by giving yourself a bit of time now, giving yourself a bit of a break now, are you actually doing all of your colleagues and all of your clients and all of your patients a favour by coming back into work, recharged, refreshed and able to go again because you know it.

We all lose our, our edge, don't we, if we're, if we're. Worn out. And I think that's where we have got people at the moment, is people who are just worn out.

And you'll be aware, Ben, that another of my roles is as a vet life volunteer and a vet life trustee. And it will come as no surprise to you, Ben, to know that 2020 was the busiest year on record for Helpline. And I don't say that, please, a very important.

We'd say don't say that to try and discourage anybody from contacting that Life if they wish to, you know, we've got plenty of capacity to to take any calls, any emails from anybody who would want to contact us. But I say it just to to highlight, you know, the magnitude of, of the way people are feeling at the moment. And you're right, the vaccine starting to roll out is hugely encouraging, I think, you know, anyone you speak to now knows one or two people perhaps who've who've received the vaccine.

And, you know, as that starts to tip until we perhaps know more people who've had the vaccine than have had COVID, and suddenly, you know, we're on a, a, a, a very different trajectory, aren't we? But there's a period now where we've got to look after each other. We've got to look after our clients, we've got to look after our colleagues, and, and that's going to be, you know, the thing that we all need to focus on, I think, through this period between now and Easter.

Yeah. And obviously one of the, the, the big areas of discussion is this, sort of. Understanding of what, what a key worker is and what, you know, what an essential worker and the various different terminologies that are associated with different types of workers, you know, I I have very clear, Guidelines that, you know, my wife is an NHS doctor, she is a key worker, she's on the front line, but of course there's a little bit of discussion and and misunderstanding as to where vets sit in this er ecosystem of essential worker, key worker status, and I just wonder, you know, if you can give people clarity on, on where we do sit in that in in that sort of picture.

Yeah, and I'm gonna be really honest as we sit here this morning, it's something that we're still trying to gain clarity on in some parts of the United Kingdom. But I think the general message in which he's coming to us is to say. Please don't conflate being a key worker with being somebody who has a very important job.

They're very different, very different things. And there's all sorts of people from different professions, different areas of the workforce who are being asked to go to work at the moment, because they can't work at home. Who aren't key workers.

And, you know, I don't think any of us would want to denigrate the importance of the roles they're playing in society and the importance of what they're contributing. And I feel very much the same about different areas of our teams. But I think where we are is that, you know, and as I say, there is variation across the four devolved nations of the United Kingdom, but as a kind of broad brush comment on this.

You know, anything that is involved in maintaining the food chain is sort of mission critical for the country, and therefore, you know, comes under key worker status. And where we're trying to gain some greater clarity is around the provision of emergency care and emergency work for, you know, for our small animal colleagues as well. And as I say, in some, some areas of the country, we've been given that reassurance, but in other areas we haven't.

So I'm sorry to not be able to give a full answer on that at the moment, but it's something we hope maybe even later today, we'll be able to get that data together and put a statement out, which should clarify it much more clearly. But I think what I can say today, and what I would like to say to everybody. Is something which comes back around to where we were before about the sort of moral and ethical stance that we all need to take as a profession.

I Key worker status, one of the big things with it is that it allows you a place in your children's childcare provision for, you know, to, to be looked after. I've got 3 girls at home, as we've just been alluding to, home schooling, and, and one of those last summer was in year 6, and, and when, if you remember, government encouraged year 6 to go back to school in, what, what the girls referred to as, COVID school, you know, it wasn't school, as any of us would understand it. And that is absolutely not a criticism of the teachers who were there and the support that was being given.

I think, you know, my, my hat is well and truly taken off to teachers and all the people who work in that environment. It's a recognition of the fact that when they had the kids at school, they were still trying to, keep them in these separate bubbles to keep them safe and again to minimise transmission at school. So, you know, in my children's middle school, there wasn't moving about between science labs and drama rooms and PE departments and all the rest of it.

There was sitting in a room, doing the stuff on Zoom that they would otherwise have been doing at home. Yeah. And I think it's important that we recognise that, you know, putting our children into that position at the moment doesn't somehow gain them some great schooling advantage over those children who aren't there at the moment.

It is there exclusively to make sure that the people who really, really need that provision at that time, are able to access it and able to carry on doing the, as we've said, sort of country, country mission critical work, which, You know, your wife, for example, is carrying out as a frontline NHS worker. So, even, even where people are key workers, I would encourage them to give real consideration to, do they need to take that place at school or that place in, you know, the other care settings at this time, or, you know, might they only need it on a Tuesday, because that's when they absolutely have to do that work, or, you know, are there any other ways around it, the childcare bubbles, the flexible working, etc. Etc.

Because this is going to be an important part of flattening this curve, you know, and as, as I saw somebody say the other day quite tritely, but I think, you know, it really did ram home to me just where we are with this. You know, when we talked about flattening the curve, we should have maybe specified that it was against the X axis. And, you know, that's where we are.

That is the reality of where we are in this pandemic. We've got something which is racing away and infecting more and more people. And I think, you know, the, the discussion about key workers, I understand it, I get it, but I think two things, please don't conflate it with how important your job is, and also even if you have it, really, let's think about whether you need to use that aspect of it at this time.

Yeah. And I think it is, isn't it, you know, it it's, you touched on it earlier, it's having that. Balance with our moral and ethical compass, we don't want to let our teams down, we don't want to let our clients down, but equally, we don't want to perpetuate this into a worse circumstance and put ourselves in a position where we're sick, we're exposing others to to an illness and we're bringing it home.

You know, we all have families, we all, you know, want to see next Christmas and the next 20 Christmases with our relatives. And if we minimise the risk to each of the individuals, you know, we've all, you know, Everyone who knows me knows I am a hugger, and I really miss having a hug. I don't think my wife has ever had quite as many hugs in a short space of time, she probably thinks I'm sick.

But, but yeah, you know, it, it is one of them circumstances where it is just hard for everyone, and we all want to do our bit and sometimes our bit is actually saying I'm gonna stay home. And it is, it's a hard thing to balance when we are such giving proactive people in a profession to, to redress our, our approach to how we do things. But, but yeah, I think, you know, as we've both said, I take my hat off to this profession.

I think, you know, people are doing incredible things with, you know, proper levels of burnout. How This is a fluid concept, you know, this is a a an agile. Set of circumstances that we're working within and obviously things change, you know, at the blink of an eye, you know, invariably we get a, a notification come through on our phones, as is the modern trend at 4:45 to say, Uncle Boris is gonna pop onto the screen in 20 minutes, brace yourselves.

How, how does that impact on us and you as an organisation moving forwards, you know, what, what can we, we often talk about what can the the BVA do for us as a profession, what can we do as a profession to help the BVA, at the minute, and, and to, you know, the people that are in the BVA. I think, you know, my big plea would be something that we've talked about already today about the humanity of it. And, you know, please, please, you know, whenever we put something out, I mean, first of all, please read it right through to the end, because I realised that sometimes there's headlines on it, which might not quite say what you want them to say.

But read beyond that and have a look at everything which is in the document that we've written. And then I would ask you, ask you ask you please to just have a, have another read and think, what is it that I'm being asked to do here and why am I being asked to do it? Because I can absolutely promise you, you know, my commitment this year, my theme for this year as president was keeping vets healthy.

That's front and centre of my mind whenever I'm asked to to help draught or to sign off any of these bits of guidance that are coming out. It's gone through that philtre in my mind. It's gone through that philtre in the mind of all of the staff and all of the other officers who've looked at the document that we're producing.

And we're producing something which is confined by legislation, by regulation, and works within the the small window that's therefore left available to us to try and help guide and advise the profession. And we're doing that, trying to balance the needs of respecting animal health and welfare, respecting. The commitment that we all have to reduce the spread of COVID and respecting the commitment that we really genuinely feel to wanting to keep our profession healthy and fit and ready for whatever the next challenges are that come our way once we get through this period.

And sometimes there'll be bits in there that are challenging. But please know, they weren't written to upset you, to make you feel vulnerable, to make you feel angry. We try so hard to think about how anything that we do empowers the people who it's going to land with.

And I think that's what I would ask, is that anything you look at, please recognise it's been written by human beings who just like you are feeling nervous, sometimes scared about what COVID means, what it looks like, what it's gonna look like for our families. Recognise that having our children at home is, yeah, it's a bit of a kind of challenge for us, but my goodness, it's a bigger challenge for them to be missing out on what they're missing out on, as, you know, as, as, as young teenagers in my case at the moment. And Yeah, just, just, it's that message about respecting our whole team, isn't it?

We've been sharing that far and wide, respect your team, respect your veterinary team. And I would just ask for the same respect to be shown back really to, to anything that we're putting together. James, it's, it's great to chat and it's great to sort of personalise a lot of the stuff that that you guys are are doing at the BVA because of course, you know, it's much easier to understand conversational text than it is to look at a huge documents and go through this and and kind of go, oh my God, there's just so much to absorb here.

So thank you for taking the time. I know you guys are all busy. I have feelings that we will probably chat again before the next few months are out, but, but keep up the great work, and I think, you know, I'm, I'm sure you will echo my, my sentiments in just saying to everybody else in the profession, you know, look guys, look after yourselves if you need to take time off, take time off, put yourself first, you've got the likes of that life there, you've got friends, you've got colleagues, you know, reach out if you're struggling with this, and we know that many of you are.

Reach out to someone and have conversations, you know, there is, there is never any issues with, with people taking time off work, you're not letting anybody down, you're looking after yourselves, and you know, you're all doing an amazing job at keeping this profession going at the moment. Absolutely, I would echo that support entirely, Ben, and I think just, just to add to, you know, places where that support can be found, just to, to re-promote I suppose, the fact that we have C19 at BVA.co.uk.

Yeah, that's where we welcome any kind of comments or anything else or anything different that we should be thinking about that we should be giving consideration to. So stay in touch with us as well. But as Ben says, and I would absolutely echo it, please stay safe, everybody, and please remember that, you know, we want you fit and healthy and ready to be vets, vet nurses, vet admin teams for a long time to come.

And this is going to be a short period of time in the, in the whole span of history, and we'll get through it together. Well, thanks so much, James.