Hi there and welcome to Vet Chat, a new podcast for the veterinary profession brought to you by the webinar vet. We're gonna discuss all things from clinical cases to hot topical debates. I'm your host Ben Sweeney, and for the first time in my life over the episodes ahead of us, I'm aiming to listen more than I talk, and I can't wait for you to join me for the adventure.

Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and today I am delighted to be joined by Laura Hyam, who's a consultant in sustainable livestock production for the Food Animal Initiative. And maybe this career path was almost inevitable given that she grew up on a Sheffield smallholding chasing pigs and milking goats. In other news, Laura has also spent 2 months working in the war zone in Darfur, on an on an animal health project, and in a brief flirtation with a television career, she was interviewed by a news programme about camels, which she admits that she did not know anything about.

Strangely, she hasn't been pursued for further TV commitments. Today, however, we get This great opportunity to chat to her about a topic which she has a wealth of knowledge, and it's pertinent to us all and our futures. So Laura, thank you so much for joining us.

I'm really looking forward to having a chat about sustainability. And I think first and foremost, frankly, what is sustainability? Thanks, Ben and and thanks for the introduction.

Sustainability to me means looking very broadly and holistically at the environmental, ethical, and economic challenges that we face, and putting together solutions to those challenges. So, to many people, it would mean really just looking at the environmental aspects, which are obviously absolutely critical, and there are looming crises ahead of us. And actually, we're living through the challenges of environmental, Challenges as we speak.

But, but really for, for me, it, it does link into ethics and economics as well. We, we as vets, we obviously know the, in detail, the challenges around animal welfare, also challenges such as antimicrobial resistance, and all those things must tie into sustainability, which, which again brings me back to it, the necessary, sort of approach, which will be looking holistically at all of these challenges together. Yeah, and I, and I think that's something that certainly from my point of view, when you, you look at sustainability, you kind of sometimes are almost drawn into the instantly thinking about just, you know, sustainability, it's just about recycling and so on and so forth, and that sort of, you know, that, that green movement as it were.

But there is obviously so much more to it than than purely just, you know, looking at, you know, reusing what we have done, it's, you know. It's planning for that future, I suppose, but obviously, given your background, you know, obviously you've you've had that small holding upbringing, but, but, you know, why and how did you sort of first get interested and involved in that sort of sustainability movement if you will. Yes, so I grew up on a, yeah, as you say, on a small holding just outside Sheffield and was absolutely privileged to, yeah, be surrounded by animals.

Throughout my childhood, and I'm really grateful to my parents for that now. But it really, meant that I grew up with a love of, of nature, quite simply, also with an understanding of of how animals can enrich our lives and the importance of animals, to human well-being, and the importance of looking after, livestock if we are to use them for food production. And that really led me into vet school with, with the idea of really focusing on, on the farm animal side.

As it turns out, I went into, a mixed practise when I graduated, moved to New Zealand to continue my mixed practise, sort of career out there. And then when I came home, really realised that I wanted, a career that looked a bit more holistically and broadly at the challenges, around food production, which led me to work, . With a charity based in London, but working a lot across Africa and the Middle East, and working really with, with working eququis and livestock in disasters and emergencies.

That was with Spanner, the charity, which was just such an incredible, stint really of about 3 years working for those guys. And it was a real privilege to work with those communities, in places like Jordan, in Morocco, in. In Zimbabwe, in, Mongolia, in, in Sudan, so incredible opportunity really, but again, gave me a, a new sort of perspective on the role of vets in international development, and again, food sustainable food production.

And then from there I realised I wanted to focus on, the farm animal side. So I took a role with the, the Food Animal initiative, where I currently work as, as a veterinary surgeon, looking after the animals on, on their farm from a vet, from a vet. Perspective and also running projects and research programmes with both on that farm and also within within the commercial supply chains of of our clients, which are primarily food businesses.

And, and since then, really sort of have gone on to to work with a number of different clients and a number of projects and and have now started work on a PhD looking at very specifically on antimicrobial use in livestock production, really for me as a means of really finding those productions. For farm animals that that that, you know, sustainable in the long term and also ensure that we are upholding our responsibilities for animal welfare. So, again, really broad, a broad project looking at looking at antibiotic resistance, antibiotic usage, but really as a as a means of championing those production systems that I believe will be sustainable in the future, and obviously also protect public health.

And, and in a very round. Way now. I'm coming back to the, the sort of sustainability in the vetting profession side.

And it's been on my mind for several years that vets hold this incredible position in society, as well as this opportunity to drive sustainability in our, niche at the human animal environmental interface. And so over the course of the last few years, I've been wondering how I engage more with the vetting profession around sustainability, and then in October took, took that leap and put together that sustain. But, but really it's been in the making for quite a long time and I'm really keen to champion vets and their current work in sustainability as sustainable sustainability agents if you like, but also to try and, Support the profession to do more in our current roles.

Yeah, and I think, well that, that probably quite nicely leads us on to sort of your new initiative founded in in October last year, which is obviously vets sustain. So you know, what, what is vet sustain and you know what, what, what do you do within the organisation and you know what, what, what's going on there at the moment? Sure, so, so vet sustain is.

Initiative that I established last October alongside 16 of the vets and para professionals. It's as I say, it's been quite a few years in the making. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how crucial vets are to sustainable society, really, particularly in the context of the global food system, but also in relation to our care of other species, so companion animals.

Animals, working animals, wildlife, etc. And, and we very much operate at this interface between animals, people and the environment. And we're also multidisciplinary scientists.

We, work on a daily basis with the public, those of us that are in practise, and we're also amongst the most trusted of the professions, which has come out recently from an RCBS survey. And I felt it was time that our profession was recognised and championed for the work that we, that we do here, but also that we leverage our position to do more. And there's no doubt that we're really looking down the barrel of a global catastrophe, one which will see the demise of, of life on Earth.

And that, that's such a horrific thing to be saying. It's, it's harrowing, but it really is the case that if we continue on this current trajectory, we are. In serious trouble as a species and obviously, we'll be bringing down our fellow species on the planet.

And it's, I suppose, when I had my daughter 18 months ago, this, this crisis came into sharp focus for me. And it sounds cliche, but it's exactly what happens. And although I felt powerless and insignificant in terms of the the sort of astronomical challenge that we face.

And I did feel that we could all leverage this, you know, the small spheres of influence that we have. And that that was how I felt. I've got, you know, a small sphere of influence, perhaps within my family, within the community, within the workplace, and potentially in the small sphere within the vet profession of people I know, for example, and by bringing on board 16 of the vets and paraprofessions, I realised that we could, you know, build on their spheres of influence.

And actually, over time, we've managed to reach across a significant section of the profession in the UK and are already reaching across, you know, and making, having traction overseas in the, in the profession over there as well, which is exciting. And, and really at the moment, we are just a movement, we are just an initiative, mainly consisting of volunteers that, you know, we're working after kids' bedtimes and things on vet sustain. It's very much a voluntary initiative, and that's why it, it might seem to be, quite slow in what we do, but at the same time, we, we have made some progress already and I'm excited about what the future holds for us.

Our, our aim, our, our sort of big, big, Vision really is for the profession to be a driving force for sustainability, and our mission is to support the profession in embedding sustainability practises and policies into our working lives, but also to support the, the, the sectors that we influence. So primarily thinking about farm animals and companion animals and and informing and inspiring. So being, you know, creating a positive space for vets.

Informing and inspiring our fellow members of the profession to, to work, work together in this space to drive change. So that's essentially what we do when we have, a social media presence or a Facebook group and page, Twitter and LinkedIn pages. We have a monthly, e-newsletter.

We have monthly webinars now that we've just launched with, the webinar vets very kindly. Providing a platform for us. So thank you to Anthony and the team.

And, and we've also just, started working on a number of initiatives, developing a series of tool kits, and resources to guide our profession through the challenges that lie ahead. So for example, how a practise might, become much more sustainable in their, in their work, and also how a vetting practise might guide their clients towards more sustainable animal ownership. We're also working with a, a sort of collective of representatives from each of the UK vet schools, and we are supporting the development of a curriculum guide, around sustainability topics for, for vet vet, for the vet schools, which is really exciting.

So it's been quite a quiet four months then by the sounds of things. I mean, it, it, it's such a. Like you say, it's an almost unfathomable size of a project when you look at it on a global scale, and you know, I think the, the, the risk, you know, as you say, when you had your daughter, that, that gives you a, a change in your life perspective almost, and certainly you know we've got a 4 month old at home, and, and, you know, when he was born, you look at stuff and you're like, well, actually, you know, what kind of a world is it that, that, you know, he's gonna grow up in and that you know the the the kids of the next generation.

Going to grow up in and actually, you know, that is our responsibility. There's no good turning around and saying, well, actually this person did this and it's their fault and that thing. Actually, we've still got this window of opportunity to er to make positive steps, but I think a project of this kind of size can sometimes be daunting for everybody to look at it and go, well, you know, what on earth am I gonna do to do that?

So, you know, what, what can members of, of the veterinary community do within their own little microcosms of the world. To, to, you know, make positive steps towards sustainability. Yeah, you're right.

And just going back to something you said there is there's so much to do, and there are so many organisations working across sustainability without perhaps perhaps specifying it as such. So what that sustained does not want to do is duplicate efforts. We have not got the time or the resources to duplicate efforts.

So I must stress that. And, and there are some incredible organisations out there that are doing huge. Amount, around, for example, you know, the BPA of, of, I worked on the sustainable agriculture position, which is really, which is fantastic.

They worked on a Choose assured campaign to advise consumers on sustainable food choices. We've got, the diversity Society. So, one of our steering group members, the is, is also, part of the, the diversity, society, which is, which is fantastic.

So looking at diversity and inclusion in the workplace and the vetting profession. And, and so many more, there's absolutely heaps going on. We, we don't wish to duplicate efforts, but there are gaps that desperately need to be plugged.

So, that's where that sustain will, will sort of, you know, use it's very limited time and resources. What, what vets can do, I think there's a multitude of things we can do is first recognising that we've all got a part to play in this, that first take take small steps, you know, try not to feel like. It's overwhelming and to take those, those first small steps in the sphere of influence that you have, whether it's within your family and your extended family, or, or probably more tangibly within the workplace.

So there's an increasing amount of guidance, there's webinars, CPD coming out, from the likes of Spes, Davis Veterinary Group and Elie West have done a huge amount and they've published blogs and articles, peer reviewed articles and such around, around sustainability and. So you can certainly start to to look at that, those CPD options, and, and, and start to build a green group in your workplace. So gather a couple of mates at work, those that might be interested in environmental stewardship or might be interested in medicine usage or might be interested in drilling down into animal welfare, breeding practises, and for example, and, and really start to put together small projects within the workplace and and approach.

Or your managers and directors about those and and present them as a small project that you'd be willing to to take on. I think trying to take those first small steps is is key and not to feel overwhelmed by the challenge. But know as well that you now have sustain in your corner as well.

So please do reach out to us and contribute to our Facebook group, you know, join our closed Facebook group. It'd be great to have as many on there as possible. And and like our page, you can follow us on Twitter.

And on LinkedIn, subscribe to a monthly newsletter, and you can go to that sustain.org to find out where to, where to click for all of those different things. But we, we have got your back on this and we do support you.

And if there's something that, that our sort of steering group can do to support you and whether we can pull in new CPD on specific topics, that sort of thing, please do send us an email or drop us a note via Facebook. That would be great. And I think obviously the vet community as a whole are are are generally speaking, you know, very proactive with a lot of, you know, sort of, topical subject matter and, and how have they, how have they sort of received vet sustained so far, you know, have they, have they been keen to engage with?

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's been primarily really positive and you know, as you say, we've we've been up and running for only 4 months and I have to remind myself of that and not. Not feel like we're, we're going so slow. We've only been in, in, you know, we've only, been in, in, in play for 4 months, but, but yeah, we have received positive feedback, lots of emails from people that want to help us as volunteers, sort of thing we've had positive feedback from the BVA on our strategy, which is great.

We've had conversations with the RCVS, and we, we're really hopeful of a, a sort of, a fruitful partnership with, with our CVS and BVA in the future, although things are still, sort of very much in the pipeline at the moment. But on the whole, we've, we've, we've had, yeah, a really positive response and on the Facebook group, it's, it's, it's really interesting to see the. Discussions evolve over time.

It's not without its debates, that's for sure. And I think that's really healthy. And as long as we keep them polite and professional, I think all of that is really good.

We've had particularly the particular, topic of debate would be around diets. And again, I think that reflects just what society is talking about at the moment, and I would absolutely encourage. Let's to talk about what a sustainable diet of the future might look like.

But again, keeping it polite and professional and and is is absolutely key to towards a better sustained, this has to be a positive space, and a safe space for us to talk about very, very complex and multi-dimensional issues. So, so yeah, it's it's generally been really well received, which is fantastic. And then obviously one of the big areas of interest within the sustainability movement is, is this issue of farming, and, and given the UK being its island status, you know, we're we're looking at, I think they were talking about a global population of somewhere around about 9.8 billion or something by 2050 they reckon, which is, is just an, you know, a huge number that you can't really, visualise almost, but that, that provision of of.

Food for that, that, that community is obviously something that we do need to look at long term. Now, the UK farming industry is obviously, you know, regularly feel got at from various different angles of society, and obviously sustainability will, will, will, will add another pressure point to to UK farmers, potentially. Now, obviously we all know within the profession that UK farming is head and shoulders above many other systems across the world.

But how have they perceived this sort of drive to sustainability and almost this added hurdle for them in life? Yeah, I think it's a hugely important conversation this and as as I've worked in the farming industry now for 6 years, I very much understand, and, and can see the daily daily pressures, on, on the farming industry. We, we have an organic mixed farm in Oxford where our offices are based and, and so I've been working on that farm with our farm manager and farm team for 6 years now and, and they are all.

To feeling, feeling that, particularly on social media and, and, and it's, it's become a very, very toxic, place for farmers, which is, which is quite frankly horrendous. You know, farmers are producing food in a way that we've asked them to produce it really since, since the war, you know, they're producing food on a mandate that we want cheap goods, you know, as cheap as possible. And the, the, the average food basket now in the UK is.

A very, very small percentage of our, our, of our pay packets. And what is going to suffer, what is going to suffer is the environment and animal welfare. And, and as you say, we have got some of the highest welfare standards in the world, which is fantastic.

But again, that's an extra pressure point on farmers to to produce cheap food and uphold high standards of animal welfare. And again, what we're seeing there is, is then the, the resultant demise of, of, of our ecosystems. Some farmers.

Obviously working very hard to preserve and restore natural ecosystems, and that's fantastic. But unfortunately, in some parts of the country and parts of the world, that that's not the case. You know, there's been the state of nature report was very damning that we're we're losing species in in terms of the diversity and abundance and in huge percentages year on year, certainly since the 1970s.

And that's something that we desperately need to need to address. So not by pointing fingers and blaming. Because every single one of us who eats food is accountable.

And we have to work together and we have to try and, incentivize farmers to to to uphold and and to to restore public goods in terms of environmental services and, and again, animal welfare. So, there's huge opportunities there, you know, farmers are stewards of our landscapes of our countryside. And so not only are they producing food, but.

Absolutely delivering public goods and and and can deliver more of that and if we incentivize them properly, which is, which is, you know, post Brexit, we have, there's an interesting opportunity here because the agriculture bill is starting to look at really incentivizing these public goods, which is an exciting time, actually. So we, we, there's hope there for for for seeing the UK is a leading light on this, and, and that's giving me hope this year for sure. And interestingly think.

About that, you know, is there a difference, you know, we, we, we have multiple shops locally, you've obviously got your big, you know, your big supermarkets and things like that, but is there a difference between supermarket sourced food products and stuff that, you know, you would get in your local butcher and your local er green grocers and things like that, you know, is there a major difference between those? It's a really good question. My local butcher.

Poy doesn't thank me for asking him questions all the time. But to be quite honest, some butchers are, are sourcing locally, they're sourcing, free range pork, for example, and they're, they're they're providing free range eggs and their, their meat is, is, is high wealth. Others don't.

So, so be really clear on this. Some butchers will source from, commercial commercial supply chains as well. So it's just a case of asking, again, some a real leading lights on this and others will, will be buying from, you know, the commercial, the commercial pot, if you will.

So, so I would really, you know, really advise people to ask questions in terms of supermarkets, again, ask questions. If it's not clear and and food labelling can be quite, confusing. But if, if it's not clear, we must start asking far more questions than we are doing currently.

And there's lots of debates in parliament all the time about food labelling and, and whether we should put method of production, labelling on food packs, for various reasons that's been opposed in the past, but it's something that I think would be, would, would really empower, citizens to, to put their money, in, into the farmers' pockets where they, where they want, you know, in, in ways that they want their food producing, so. Personally, I just think it's about asking far more questions than we currently do, getting out there on social media and asking questions, and, and, and, and going forth that way. But yeah, there, there can be a difference, Ben, but, but not always, so it's, it's just to be aware of that.

Yeah, and obviously, you know, the farming question is obvious, but, but you know, in companion animal where, you know, the vast majority of, of the veterinary profession are working, you know, what, what, what sort of sustainability implications do we have with, with our, you know, dogs, cats, increasingly rabbits and, you know, the occasional gecko thrown into the mix? Yeah, absolutely. So I think that the two sides of that sustain that we're working on is the side where we're looking in the mirror, sort of looking hard at the mirror and In the mirror and and and really thinking about how we work and our veterinary activities, in the workplace in practise.

So helping that that business, whether it's an independent vet practise or part of a corporate chain, looking at how that's operating and and and making significant improvements, improvements where necessary. And also think looking in the mirror and thinking about us as citizens in our own rights. So our role in society as trusted professionals, what are we doing, in terms of our lifestyles, and, and so looking at that and, and making changes where necessary.

That's really important. And, and secondly, then, once we've got our house in order, we can look at the sectors that we influence again looking at companion animals, looking at, The way we keep horses, looking at how we keep exotic, pets, and, and starting to work with companion, animal owners, in, in that sphere as well. So, what are we feeding pets?

You know, how, how do we stop birds from, from, from killing so much wildlife in the garden if they're doing that? All of those things, you know, should we be applying, monthly and Parasitics to our pets, bearing in mind that we've got increasing knowledge and awareness of, of how those anti-parasitics can go on to pollute waterways and, and have a knock-on effects in terms of ecotoxicity, for wildlife. That sort of thing is what we need to be now addressing and advising our, our clients on.

And Vet Sustain is working hard on some of these issues, which are currently not that clear, to be honest, on what exactly we should be advising. But there are some very clear wins and and I think, I think that's something that, that, that vets can start to, start to work together on to put together these guidance notes for, for companion animal owners. Yeah, I think that's it, isn't it?

It's looking at the, you know, the actual bigger picture impact of everything we use it, you know, I certainly don't think much about when I'm handing out wormers and things like that to patients and actually when you start thinking of the, the, the implications further down the chain from that, it really does give you some sort of chance to reflect on your, your clinical practises and it holds opportunities for far more diagnostics, you know, we're not just saying let's. Strip away this, this, sort of source of income, which is essentially what it would mean for a veterinary practise that's relatively reliant on medicine sales. We're saying, actually, we can do strategic treatments, that's fine, but they have to be based on diagnostic testing, and, and that, that has to be the future of veterinary practise for me is to be much more smart about, about what we're prescribing and what we're using.

Yeah, definitely. And I think probably last and and certainly by no means least, Laura, you know, what is the big plan for the future for vets sustain? Yeah, this is it, this is a question that we get asked a lot and .

To be quite honest with you, Ben, it's, it's still, in, in the making that, that big, that big vision. We're currently working on a series of, of, of veterinary sustainability goals, which we hope to bring to the profession soon, as a means of sort of coalescing around some very clear visions for the future and then developing our resources that will then contribute to to those. Goals, that will be the first thing.

But, my, my personal ambition for that sustain would be to, to set it up as something slightly more concrete than a sort of movement, which is taking volunteer effort. It would be to set it up as a small, organisation, and which will allow us to, hopefully become, you know, sustainable in our, in our own right and to deliver what the Profession needs us to deliver, and there is a real niche for that at the moment, and, and a real, urgency for, for those resources and for that information. So that my hope is that in the next few months, you'll see that sustained becoming something a bit more concrete, and it will be much more clear about, about where we're heading in terms of the big goals, that we, that we all should be aiming towards.

I think those goals go, they're pretty good ones. So Laura, thank you so much for joining me. I'm, I'm really excited to see how that sustain progresses in the weeks, months and years ahead.

Please, if you listen, please, if you're listening, do, you know, get involved, you know, it might be that you can just do. The tiniest little bit of things, but, but that will have, you know, a long term impact, so I'm really excited to to get more involved with it and I know many more people with, so, thanks so much for joining us again, and I look forward to watching the journey ahead. Thanks so much, Ben, for the opportunity to talk to you today, appreciated.

Thanks for joining us for today's episode of Vet Chat. If you've enjoyed listening to my dulcet scouse tones as I interview people much more intelligent than myself, then please do click follow and join us for future episodes.