Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and today I get to do what I kind of enjoy doing most with these podcast episodes, which is just chatting to somebody about the journey their career is taking them on, and I think it's so important as vets, as nurses, as vet students, as student vet nurses, as someone who's a teenager thinking about a career in the veterinary profession to look at. The avenues that are available to us, and it's safe to say that in modern times, there are infinitely more avenues than we could have ever have even thought imaginable. But today is someone who has well and truly made the most of her RBM qualification.

So I'm delighted to welcome Claire Roberts, who's current. Position is professional development manager at Linnaeus. But suffice to say, I think 20 years ago when Claire qualified as a vet nurse, she probably didn't see that particular position on the horizon at the time.

So Claire, it's bossed to have you here for a chat. Obviously I have got a significantly greater. To insight the many into your your, your career windings as they have been, but I just wondered if you could tell everyone, go back way back when, if you think about when you first thought about wanting to be a vet nurse.

And what was, what was your driving force, you know, why on earth did you want to be a vet nurse way back when? That's a big question. Firstly, thank you very much for having me.

I mean, I, it's a very exciting time to be a veterinary nurse, and I, I mean, those many, many years ago, I suppose, I actually left school at 16, and I went to work as an event yard groom, and I earned £70 a week, and I used to have to pay £70 a week to keep my horse there. So basically, I earned absolutely nothing. I always wanted to work with animals and I think the science behind veterinary medicine was something that really interested me, so I probably joined veterinary nursing a little, you know, maybe 18 years old, trying to find a position.

And it, I wouldn't say it was easy. I wrote to many practises like lots of us have to. Sort of begging just for a bit of work experience or whether they had any training positions.

The first job I was interviewed for, and I did get the job was, would have meant that I would have had to do night shifts on my own in a kind of three story townhouse, and I was, and still am scared of the dark. And I remember saying to my mum, I really, really want to be a veterinary nurse, but I just don't think I could stay in the house on my own out of hours at night. And I actually turned the job down because of that, because I was that frightened about being in this sort of spooky little townhouse, really.

And then I was given the opportunity, my first practise, and I got that training position, and it was absolutely brilliant, and I loved every, every single minute of it. So First major revelation of today's podcast is that you're scared of the dark still. Scared, still scared of the dark, yeah.

Well you obviously got your foot on the ladder, and I think for so many of us. It's that first step on the ladder and that first bit of experience that we get in our careers is something that I, I may be wrong, but compared to a lot of other professionals, I think it really resonates with us throughout the rest of our profession. Again, I could be wrong through our professional lives, and you know, I still very much remember my Saturday job in Adam's Bet in Liverpool with.

John Adams, who was a chap who was distinctly possibly the quintessential dodgy dealer kind of chap, but just a proper old school vet, like, you know, he was consults effing and blinding his way through them with a pipe, but you know so and so those things really resonate, but you know, he gave me an insight into the veterinary world. If you had anybody in your career who has You know, being that, that person that stands out and just say, you know, cos we all have those, well at least I would like to think we all have those people that we look up to and go, do you know what, like, if it wasn't for your involvement in my career, I'm not sure where I'd have gone to. Yeah.

Do you know what? There's been so, like, there's been so many people on my journey, and my journey has been quite varied. You know, I've moved along from clinical work, I've worked in college settings.

I've been, territory managers for companies, you know, I've, I've done lots of different things, and, you know, it's hard to pull out certain people, but there are people like my head nurse at PDSA. Her name's Di Pitsy Cotti. She's now actually a human theatre nurse.

And that's where I made my first big mistake as, as a veterinary nurse student, where I overdosed a patient on buprenorphine quite considerably. I missed, the calculation was wrong, I hadn't got it checked, I'd given the drug, and I had this, you know, I just broke out in a cold sweat instantly when I'd given it, and I thought, I've, I've made a really big mistake. And I think the way she dealt with that situation and guided me through that and supported me that I was still in the reference range, what the side effects were, what to monitor, you know, actually.

Sort of taught me from an early stage that we are only human and we will actually make mistakes, but it's whether we learn from those mistakes. So that she really did support me, early on. There are too many people to say exactly who, but I've had a lot of opportunities in my career from a lot of people.

I know who they are. I mean, I did, I would say I, I hunted down opportunity, so I was always looking for opportunity and, and more responsibility. I worked for Goddard Veterinary Group for a long time, and they really built me up my career from starting as a, a nurse to a, to a head nurse to looking at education within them.

I was an assessor, internal verifier, I supported the regional managers. So all of these opportunities sort of build you up within your career. So what's been.

The, the low points of your career, because we all go through those times where we look at it and go, do you know what, I could just jack this in, go and work in Tesco's and have a lovely time. Has there, has there been any point that you've just thought, nah, I can't be doing with this? Yeah, there's a, to be honest, not many.

I've, I've really been very, very fortunate. There's a couple. I was in a practise that maybe didn't suit my outlook of what, how I wanted my career to be.

Maybe didn't align with my standards of care, and which I struggled with, and then it actually occurred to me that actually it's OK to move on. You know, some practise will fit you better than other practises. Practises.

And, you know, if something that's really important for you, for example, postoperative pain relief, if that's something you're really, really keen on making sure your patients have, and you're working in a practise that, you know, doesn't have the same values as you for some reason, sometimes it's better actually just to find a better fit. So I think there was a situation there, which I struggled with. Another kind of situation when I was heavily pregnant and I was working in referral and it was quite physically demanding, the role that I was doing, and I could see more and more that I wasn't able to do that role and I found it quite distressing.

That I was entering a new phase in my life that actually, you know, gonna restrict the amount of hands-on nursing I was gonna do. Would I be able to come back full-time nursing? And I found that quite difficult.

You know, now my kids are older, you realise, you know, after the event that life returns to normal, you're back to work sooner than you think, and, and enjoy that, you know, enjoy that time with, with your children if you can for as long as you can, because The job's still waiting for you when you get back, really. But I remember struggling quite a lot about having to go on maternity leave. I had a head nurse role at the time, and I was thinking, oh, you know, I, I'll have to come back for the part time.

I'm not gonna be able to take on that role again. And I, I found that quite difficult. See you.

That's a really fascinating insight to that side of things, because of course there's this automatic assumption in modern society that when somebody's pregnant, that, you know, they're just really, really looking forward to the maternity leave. But actually, for so many people that do what we do, of course there is that representation, and of course there is that number. But they go, oh God, just I can't wait to get off.

And I think those of us that have been through it, and I can only comment on this from the male perspective, but can certainly look back through those pre-partum rose-tinted glasses and go, oh yeah, full-time work is probably a stroll in the park by comparison to parenting. But, but I think it really is that fascinating insight that actually a lot of us really, really love what we do and I think. Probably sadly fits with the the the high rate of burnout that we have across the profession because people give so much in and of themselves to their careers, to the extent of, you know, their own physical and mental detriments at times.

And what, what did. What did becoming a parent and, and going through that little bit of a sort of time out and life transition phase, what did that teach you? And were, were there any learnings that you could take from that that you sort of gone actually, do you know what, I can use that in my vet nurse life.

So I did struggle with the lack of sort of financial independence that comes with not working full time, this sort of freedom to kind of do what you want, pick up the equistra shift, stay. I stay late to nurse those really interesting cases that you want to get stuck into. I, you know, I did struggle with that.

But along with that comes a different sort of development. I became more patient, in life as, as general. I, I realised that actually, not everything has to happen now.

And I also realised that you can pick your life back up a few years on and you can still develop yourself and, and drive your career forward. And actually with having children. That's spurred me on to set up Synergy CPD, which is obviously the CPD company that I set up about 10 years ago.

So my daughter's about to be 10. And I set that up, really, it was supposed to be a bit of a boredom buster for me. I was feeling a little bit crazy.

I was working one day a week still at Anderson Moore's Veterinary centre, which I loved working there. And I was still working one day a week, but I just said, you know, I'd just like to be able to get out the odd evening a month, maybe. And that's where you realise that the veterinary community is really small and really supportive because when you said those people that have sort of had an impact on you, you know, my first bookings for Synergy were the people I worked with before who booked me and had me in, and I made some terrible mistakes.

On costing. I think the first course I ever did, all of the money that I, that I charged went out on the printing costs. So that was a real, like, that was a, like an immediate learning curve.

OK, you need to reevaluate what you're charging. But I was supported by those people that had seen me on my journey, my nursing career. And I was really meant to just do synergy maybe 1 or 2 nights a month.

Bit of pocket money, get me, get me out of the house, and it just took off and it's, and it grew and grew to what it is today, really. And of course you've got your own premises with Synergy now. Well, we don't anymore actually, thank you, COVID very much.

And so yeah, the, the, the venue was opened just over a year ago. We closed it. About May time.

We couldn't have people in the centre, so we closed it. In, in all honesty, I didn't overly enjoy having the venue, and that's another thing you learn in life. It's OK to try something and realise it's not for you.

I loved the people that came and I had an extremely supportive group of nurses and vets that came regularly to the sessions, and I got to know them and I'm forever grateful for them making it what it was. But I did everything, you know, I did the venue, the catering, the washing up, the setting up, the printing, sometimes the lecturing, the clearing, you know, the bookings, and, and actually I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would and I think that's OK in life to say I've tried it, it didn't work and COVID really. Sealed the deal with the fact that we couldn't have any more people on site anyway, so yeah, you know, again it's the, I, I guess a lot of people react differently to the different challenges in life, but it's the, you know, you can, you can take defeat and you can sort of go, OK, well.

There's nothing I can do about this. I'm, I'm, I'm done. But of course, you know, your, your investment in yourself in your early years of your career, and then your development of synergy has obviously made people sort of stand up and go, hang on a second, who's this and what are they doing?

And, and it's interesting, you touched earlier on the pricing with your early CPD and the fact that You lost all of your, your stuff, so it gave you an opportunity to evaluate what you charged for what you do and actually value what you do as a service, and something that I'm seeing increasingly regularly, and Joe Public will have a different opinion on this is that practises are starting to charge for vet nurses' time. Which I think is a fantastic endorsement of the value of the vet nurse to the practise, because I always thought previously that, you know, frankly they're saying, oh we'll go and see the vet nurse, they'll do it for free, you know, there's still an inherent cost to the practise, and, and yes it was utilising the skills of the nurse, but the, the owners. Weren't really getting an insight into the value that that nurse was bringing to them as a person, and I just wondered sort of what your take was on, how the role and the importance of the vet nurse has evolved, I mean for me I look at, The, the mindset towards vet nurses a decade ago in the mindset towards vet nurses now, to me the only consistent is that most new grads are still absolutely petrified of the veterinary nursing team because they know that if they don't get them on side, life could be a little bit bumpy.

I don't know what you mean. Yeah, I think we're still some way to go, but I still, I think we're heading in the right direction. It's an exciting time.

We just had to look at the number of people that stood for being council last year, the number of people that have been standing for BBNA council. There's a kind of activity of, of nurses that are now prepared to put their self forward and represent their profession. I think we still have a way to go out in Some of the, in some of the practises across the country, nurses definitely should be revenue generators, but for us to be revenue generators, we need to understand the financial situation within the business that we're working in.

And, you know, I'm a strong believer that there should be a veterinary nurse's voice in every discussion within the practise. Whatever that discussion's about, whether it's about patient care, whether it's about finance, whether it's about development. There should be a veterinary nursing voice within those discussions, and I'm not sure we're there yet for everybody, but it will change.

Yeah, and certainly you see, you know, there's some practises that are very proactive, and there's some practises that are will go with the PC response of less proactive. But where do you, where do you see that role for vet nursing? I sort of evolving, obviously, you know, you're quite heavily involved with the likes of Vet nurse council and and things.

Obviously, you know, really sort of highlighting the importance of the vet nurse to, to each and every practise, but where, where do you see that role evolving in the years to come? So I think obviously now my focus within and now within professional development is focusing more on the primary care nursing, and there there is a different, we're a different, it's a different breed. We've got referral nursing, we've got primary care nursing, and we're very keen to make primary care nursing a a sort of a specialty within its own right, because it encompasses so many areas where where the primary care nurse can really be utilised.

And help drive business forward. So, you know, I'd like to see veterinary nurses that do an advanced qualification to actually be able to utilise those skills. It's still quite frustrating for us as a profession to, to take on extra qualifications, to be skilled in other areas, but they're not result in us being able to apply them into the, into the practise.

So I'd like to see that changed. I'd definitely like to see the role of the clinic nurse being a a you know, a core member of the team rather than oh you're on the clinic nurse roads today. You know, clinic nursing is a specialty within its own right, and with the the right nurses running your clinics has a huge impact on bonding clients to the practise, but also generating a revenue.

So I know there's lots of clinic nurses out there that are doing a great job, but I think it needs to be more of a key role in the, in definitely in the primary care setting. Yeah, and like you say, I mean, there are so many strings to the, you know, the proverbial bow of, of vet nursing, especially in GP practise, you know, I mean, it's almost the, I think easier is the wrong term when you're looking at referral stuff, but at least you're much more kind of focused on that, OK, this is my role in this, you know, sort of. In in referral teams before where you know you've got the referral team and you've got the, the, the primary care team, you know, those roles are, whilst you're still under the banner of vet nurse, they are seismically different in terms of, you know, what goes into them.

And you know, I, I personally look at my own career trajectory and go all I ever wanted inverted commas, was to be a good GP vet. Yeah, and I love that because I, frankly, I couldn't cope with the high stress of the, the referral stuff and the pressure that goes with that, but, but there's obviously people that excel on that. And of course, as vet nurses there's this plethora of, of personalities, of objectives, of interests, but, but.

Obviously there's people that that get into careers that that maybe sort of feel a little bit lost on that particular path at time and you know, what would you say to people who are looking at their vet nursing journey, whether they're, you know, pre-ing, whether they're students, whether they're qualified recently, whether they've been doing it for 30 years and they've kind of got there going, you know, what, what do I do with this? What, what sort of, what would you encourage them to do as individuals? So I think you need to have a plan of, of where you think you want to be and what you think you want to focus on.

I think that's really important. Don't, you know, don't necessarily be feeling like, oh, I've got to do a course in that, or I've got to do a course in that, or, you know, think, what, what do I actually want to do? Am I in the right practise to do that?

So if you want to be, I don't know, for example, an oncology nurse, then you're probably not gonna be in the primary care setting. But then if you want to do focus on clinic nursing, for example, you're probably not gonna be in the referral nurse setting. So find where you should be and find your niche and try and develop that within your, within your practise.

So if you've got a really keen interest in anaesthesia, looking at trying to find a way that you can harness that for the benefit of your patients and then help drive the sort of level of care that you can provide within that setting. I think it's difficult not to get stuck in a in any profession, not just, not just veterinary nursing. It's about constantly redeveloping ourselves.

You know, my husband's always saying, you know, what you're doing another course. Yeah. Yeah doing another course, because I, because I really enjoy it.

And, and that's it. Keep learning, keep developing. Be in a practise that fits.

You know, what, what you believe to be important to you, surround yourself by people that actually want to pull you forward with them, which is really, really important. You want to have, you know, leaders in front of you if you're sort of newly qualified or, or recently qualified nurses. You want the people above you to be pulling you up along your career.

And if you find you're in a practise where still you're, you know, you feel like there's nowhere for you to go or progress, it can be quite frustrating. Mm. And what, what sort of looking back, obviously you've had multiple different hats that you've had the opportunity of wearing through that, but what's, what's been your favourite role?

So anything to do with sort of sharing knowledge has been, you know, I love teaching, and I think that's something that as I move into the professional development role, just to be able to redirect what teaching that will be, because it will become less and less clinical, that that's the reality and that's something I have. To deal with, you know, I'll find that challenging that, you know, I will slowly move away from clinical teaching, but I would still like to be able to then teach sort of about development and leadership and, and team growth and optimisation of your teams, all of those sorts of things. So I think anything where I can Sort of maybe just make other nurses understand things in a different way.

I, you know, I, whenever I kind of lecture, I, I can, I remember not remem I remember not knowing. And I think it's really important when you try and teach people is to remember what it was like to know nothing at all and then build up from there. And I really enjoy that part of it.

Yeah, and I think for me it's always great when you see someone. Nail something and you think actually you know you've had a little hand in their development, you may have been like nowhere near the case where you know, when you, when you see I always find myself going to hide when you can hear the hyperactive, the hyperthyroid cat in, in the consult room and just sort of go, oh yeah, I'm I'm. Busy on a phone call at this moment in time, and you see, you know, student, you know, student nurses just genuinely amaze me because they are so keen to, to prove themselves for the most part.

And like, you know, you just sit there and you just think you have to take your hat off because. Circumstances that I look at you like you're genuinely taking your life in your hands with it. And you have held it brilliantly and you think, you know, maybe as a profession we're not we're we're maybe not good enough at at just saying do you know what, you've done a brilliant job.

Yeah, I agree with that. I don't know if it's a, I don't know if it's a British thing, we talked about this the other day. You know, to be able to say well done, it's not, it's not that natural to some of us just to say that was a great job or.

You know, often we, we, we will pick people up on maybe where the downfalls are, or where things could be done slightly differently, but it's trying to remember to say, Well done, great job. And I think on the point you said about student nurses, again, within my role within the NAA, we really, you know, we cannot forget the PCAs, the ACAs, the ANAs, you know, this is a, this is a group of, of the profession that without them, actually, our nurses can't be fully utilised. They are a career.

Within their own right, and it is something that, you know, we're really, really keen that they are developed within their roles, whether they want to go on to nurse training or whether they want to, you know, specialise as a PCA. That's really important not to forget that kind of group of the team. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that is, it, it is, I think it's funny really, isn't it, cos we live in a society where everybody thinks you should constantly be looking to where your next level is.

And actually, You look at it and go, you know what, I'm, I'm quite happy on this level for the minute, thanks. And actually this is me doing what I want to do. I don't want millions of pounds.

I don't want this, I don't want that. I just want to be able to do my job that I enjoy, to go home and enjoy my life, and I think actually there's, there's a lot to be said for that. I mean, like I I I think I I literally have someone in my mind's eye at this point who I've worked with in practise, who's an animal care assistant, and she.

Returned to that profession in her late 40s. And she was like, Well, I've got my kids, you know, my mortgage is paid off, you know, this is what I wanna do. And I've worked with a few people that have left pretty, you know, completely different professions, like, someone that was a solicitor, someone who was a police officer, and they came to sort of do an animal care role because they, you know, really, because they genuinely want to just work with animals, which Which is great.

Yeah, I think, yeah, again I use the hyperthyroid cat analogy of, yeah, you give them 5 hyperthyroid cats back to back and then let's see how much they want to work with animals. But it is and I, and I think you know it's a real testament to the fact that actually, you know, sometimes we do maybe need to just pause a little bit and go, do you know what, am I doing something I, I enjoy, if I'm not, great news is and you're. As is very, very clear from your CV testament to the fact that, you know, there's something you want to pivot into, there's something you want to get a bit more interest, and experience in, you can go and do it and, and the vet nurse qualification is a, a massive door opener for that.

Awesome, but Claire, it, it's great to chat, it's great to have a little bit of insight into, you know, what, what somebody else who's got a vet nurse qualification has done with their careers. I'm just gonna ask you to close with a little snippet of advice to anybody who's looking at, you know. What their career may have in store for them, not to put you on the spot or anything.

No thanks for that. No, I would say that for anyone sort of joining the profession now or thinking of joining the profession, this is an extremely exciting time for you to be doing so. I know that if this was where I was setting out on this career path.

I would be really excited about the opportunities that, you know, being developed, a little bit behind the scenes, but they're getting there of how, you know, the progression is moving forward, so I think this is definitely a career for life. We just need to be able to position ourselves where we can start to maybe, ask for the kinds of salaries that allow us to keep in the profession for life. And that's gonna happen by us actually starting to sort of generate an income to the practises, but we're definitely getting there, and I, you know, genuinely can't wait to meet all the new people that join the profession.

And I think especially if you're working working at Linnaeus, I'm fairly sure you're gonna come across Claire in months, weeks, years to come. You don't get a choice. Yeah, exactly.

So when you develop your clinical career or not, you're going to it's great that you've got people who are willing and wanting. And passionate about teaching you, and I think, you know, the profession needs people that are gonna, gonna help empower others throughout. So Claire, it's great to chat, keep up all the good work, and I'm looking forward to seeing all of the exciting developments at and with that careers and futures in future.

Yeah, thank you very much, thanks for having me. Cheers. See you later.